76 replies to this topic

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

It could be down to popularity. 500 sets of gaz golds sold 5% failed is 25 sets sent back. 20 sets of obscenely expensive nitrons sold 5% failure would be just 1 set. No ones going to shout about just one set.

I'd love a set of nitrons but the price when compared to Gaz's is just too much.

I think you're trying to mitigate the situation. You honestly think the amount of cars on Gaz outnumber Nitron by 25:1 ....? Pull the other one will you, that's utter rubbish! Just because we're pikeys on here doesn't mean Nitron do not shift SHEDLOADS of their VX/Lotus shocks.

Nitron have been making this particular shock for over a decade. Gaz are new to the VX/Lotus market and I'm afraid it SHOWS! I'm not slagging them as a company as they make some decent products but the R&D Nitron have developed over the years has resulted in Nitron offering a far better engineered product which has NO reliability issues. I'm afraid Gaz have yet to achieve the same.

Buy cheap, buy twice.

How many sets of Gaz have I sold in the last 18 months and how many sets have I had issues with.

How many sets of Nitron over the same period.

If the stats are unknown then we can't comment, if the stats are known, post em up.

I don't see the relevance of the sales figures of 'two guys off a forum'.... Numerous motorsport companies supply Nitrons every day. Simba just bought some Race 46's from Guiglielmiliguile, Joe's got Hofmann's spec, Fiveoclock bought from BoT, there's Hanger 111, Seriously Lotus..... the list goes on, how do my personal sales reflect a whole market? Especially when I only sell to the VX guys who tend to go for cheap shocks these days. Are you not the sole distributor of Gaz's to VX's these days...?

I'll bet my next weeks wages that there are more sets of NTR's on gods green earth than VX/Lotus spec Gaz's. Without a doubt!!!



edit - ps, I love a battle, cliffie knows I got the love

[Mike (Cliffie)]

I am getting a bit tired of Gaz bashing when I know there are so many people out there who are very happy with what they have Gaz wise. I don't deny there have been issues in the past and I am sure there will be issues in the future but it is made out that they are crap and all break whereas other brands never fail. I have supplied over 40 sets of Gold Pros and to date have had zero returns to factory for rebuilds. For the one or two issues that still crop up there are hundreds of owners that don't have issues. Oh, and for the record, Gaz Monotubes won both Lotus Elise's races out in Spa this year...

[Mike (Cliffie)]

It could be down to popularity. 500 sets of gaz golds sold 5% failed is 25 sets sent back. 20 sets of obscenely expensive nitrons sold 5% failure would be just 1 set. No ones going to shout about just one set.

I'd love a set of nitrons but the price when compared to Gaz's is just too much.

I think you're trying to mitigate the situation. You honestly think the amount of cars on Gaz outnumber Nitron by 25:1 ....? Pull the other one will you, that's utter rubbish! Just because we're pikeys on here doesn't mean Nitron do not shift SHEDLOADS of their VX/Lotus shocks.

Nitron have been making this particular shock for over a decade. Gaz are new to the VX/Lotus market and I'm afraid it SHOWS! I'm not slagging them as a company as they make some decent products but the R&D Nitron have developed over the years has resulted in Nitron offering a far better engineered product which has NO reliability issues. I'm afraid Gaz have yet to achieve the same.

Buy cheap, buy twice.

How many sets of Gaz have I sold in the last 18 months and how many sets have I had issues with.

How many sets of Nitron over the same period.

If the stats are unknown then we can't comment, if the stats are known, post em up.

I don't see the relevance of the sales figures of 'two guys off a forum'.... Numerous motorsport companies supply Nitrons every day. Simba just bought some Race 46's from Guiglielmiliguile, Joe's got Hofmann's spec, Fiveoclock bought from BoT, there's Hanger 111, Seriously Lotus..... the list goes on, how do my personal sales reflect a whole market? Especially when I only sell to the VX guys who tend to go for cheap shocks these days. Are you not the sole distributor of Gaz's to VX's these days...?

I'll bet my next weeks wages that there are more sets of NTR's on gods green earth than VX/Lotus spec Gaz's. Without a doubt!!!



edit - ps, I love a battle, cliffie knows I got the love

I wasn't discussing your personal sales figures Jimmy as I don't know them, nor was I discussing Gaz's figures outside of my own experience.

I do know the volumes Gaz shift globally into so many markets and for too many applications to mention and I would bet my next week's salary that Gaz shift more units worldwide across all applications than the other brand.

You know my opinion on Nitron, I like what they do and I like the product, I also like the other bits they do and if I had the budget I would go buy it all for my car but I don't.

You seem to know of the figures, how many Gaz failures this year?

And I am not the only distributor for Gaz about these parts, not even to the VX/Lotus market and in fact I don't sell at all to Lotus owners. But somebody does...

Edited by Cliffie, 07 November 2011 - 07:48 PM.

[ChrisS1]

Thanks Cliffie, I just need to find either somewhere to leave my car on axle stands while they're off as I could probably steal a lift to work for a week or so; or something to go in their place

I've got a Set of billies in the garage that you can borrow if you need to?
I'm in Chepstow.

I may well take you up on the offer if nothing more local comes up before the weekend, may have to visit my brother in Hereford and drop in on the way there or the return leg, I'll PM you later in the week and see if I can pick them up this weekend?

Thanks All!

Cool just send me a PM and we can arrange something

[darronwall]

nothing wrong with gaz

[JohnTurbo]

I don't really care how reliable coilovers are relative to one another...whats more important is how long they will last, or how they compare to the std shocks. To me there clearly has been a reliability issue in the past with Gaz. Here is my reasoning; I have a few friends with VXs now. The ones with Gaz shocks have all had rebuilds. I don't know anyone with billies who has sucessfully worn them out. The details of how these issues have been rectified would probably make me buy a set. I've been uming and arring for a while. Its a large part of my job to resolve the products my company sells with shakey reliabilty, and I know from experience the only way to get confidence back to my (engineering) customers its to show them the nature of failure and the exact details of the solution. I guess that would be optimistic - but Cliffie, if you had that info i'd be very interested. It strikes me as unlikely that the same level of issues have existed with Nitrons - but they cost more and so I won't buy them anyway. It does seem that Gaz are efficient at fixing shocks which helps significantly.

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

I don't really care how reliable coilovers are relative to one another...whats more important is how long they will last, or how they compare to the std shocks. To me there clearly has been a reliability issue in the past with Gaz.

Here is my reasoning; I have a few friends with VXs now. The ones with Gaz shocks have all had rebuilds. I don't know anyone with billies who has sucessfully worn them out.

The details of how these issues have been rectified would probably make me buy a set. I've been uming and arring for a while.

Its a large part of my job to resolve the products my company sells with shakey reliabilty, and I know from experience the only way to get confidence back to my (engineering) customers its to show them the nature of failure and the exact details of the solution. I guess that would be optimistic - but Cliffie, if you had that info i'd be very interested.

It strikes me as unlikely that the same level of issues have existed with Nitrons - but they cost more and so I won't buy them anyway.

It does seem that Gaz are efficient at fixing shocks which helps significantly.

A fair opinion but neglects to consider the performance of the shock. Anybody who has upgraded from Gaz to Nitron say the difference in handling and ride quality is significant. Weelybro has been out in both mine and Cliffies cars recently and fiveoclock sold his Golds for Nitrons and both commented on the difference between the two. Gaz are a good shock but when you're chucking £900+ at your car to make it handle as well as it possibly can be it seems daft to invest in a product from a company with a poor reputation in terms of reliability on shocks that do not seem to perform as well as the Nitron counterparts. Gaz do not even offer a 16mm option piston!?!?!?

OK Ben Hyland won two races at Spa in the slowest class on some Gaz's in Elise Trophy. Who do you think has been winning all the other races all season long across all the top classes? Admittedly there are a fair few Ohlins cars out there too, but Nitron rule the roost.

I think the difference may lie in what I said above and what John said.... If you're just looking for some coilovers then Gaz's prices are hard to ignore. If you want to make your car as good as it can be then you need to spend more money and buy Nitron/Ohlins...

[Tail slide]

It could be down to popularity. 500 sets of gaz golds sold 5% failed is 25 sets sent back. 20 sets of obscenely expensive nitrons sold 5% failure would be just 1 set. No ones going to shout about just one set.

I'd love a set of nitrons but the price when compared to Gaz's is just too much.

I think you're trying to mitigate the situation. You honestly think the amount of cars on Gaz outnumber Nitron by 25:1 ....? Pull the other one will you, that's utter rubbish! Just because we're pikeys on here doesn't mean Nitron do not shift SHEDLOADS of their VX/Lotus shocks.

Nitron have been making this particular shock for over a decade. Gaz are new to the VX/Lotus market and I'm afraid it SHOWS! I'm not slagging them as a company as they make some decent products but the R&D Nitron have developed over the years has resulted in Nitron offering a far better engineered product which has NO reliability issues. I'm afraid Gaz have yet to achieve the same.

Buy cheap, buy twice.

Mirrored on TVR forums. So many had faults with Gaz I'm afraid even last year, though seem a helpful team there. I try to get good deals on most parts & labour, but if you won't pay for high quality parts in dampers, engines and tyres you get second-rate performance and life.

I was one of early customers for Nitron's (on a Ginetta) when Guy started the company, he was aiming at Ohlins quality but on a much smaller profit margin. He supplied at 2/3rd price as the car was competitive and good publicity - but they've deservedly moved into bigger league and are beating Ohlins in top circuit racing.

[MrSimba]

I had great service from Gaz, really helpful and a 'nothing was too much trouble' attitude but that could not take away the fact that the product itself keep failing or sqeeeeeeeeeeeeeeking...

Edited by MrSimba, 08 November 2011 - 08:45 AM.

[Whiteboy]

My garage queen had gaz golds and for me the idea of spending double the amount for nitrons seemed pointless. I only used my car for pleasure driving and track days, so the need to spend more was not worth it. All four of the shocks needed rebuilding though - at least on the VX this is an easy job, the front two after 2000 miles and the back after 3000 miles. If this car had been a daily runner I would have been very cross and as for Gazs customer care, I thought they had lost my shocks on one occasion, as they could not find them in the work shop and the reason was is because they had already couried them - doh. NVH is also worse with the gaz, if i was to buy again and I could afford to I would go for Nitron everytime. I thought about putting adjustable shocks on the MX5, but after the experience I had had with gaz and the time it would take to remove them on it, I will stick to the oe bilstein with eibach lowering springs. Steve

[Mike (Cliffie)]

I don't really care how reliable coilovers are relative to one another...whats more important is how long they will last, or how they compare to the std shocks. To me there clearly has been a reliability issue in the past with Gaz.

Here is my reasoning; I have a few friends with VXs now. The ones with Gaz shocks have all had rebuilds. I don't know anyone with billies who has sucessfully worn them out.

The details of how these issues have been rectified would probably make me buy a set. I've been uming and arring for a while.

Its a large part of my job to resolve the products my company sells with shakey reliabilty, and I know from experience the only way to get confidence back to my (engineering) customers its to show them the nature of failure and the exact details of the solution. I guess that would be optimistic - but Cliffie, if you had that info i'd be very interested.

It strikes me as unlikely that the same level of issues have existed with Nitrons - but they cost more and so I won't buy them anyway.

It does seem that Gaz are efficient at fixing shocks which helps significantly.

A fair opinion but neglects to consider the performance of the shock. Anybody who has upgraded from Gaz to Nitron say the difference in handling and ride quality is significant. Weelybro has been out in both mine and Cliffies cars recently and fiveoclock sold his Golds for Nitrons and both commented on the difference between the two. Gaz are a good shock but when you're chucking £900+ at your car to make it handle as well as it possibly can be it seems daft to invest in a product from a company with a poor reputation in terms of reliability on shocks that do not seem to perform as well as the Nitron counterparts. Gaz do not even offer a 16mm option piston!?!?!?

OK Ben Hyland won two races at Spa in the slowest class on some Gaz's in Elise Trophy. Who do you think has been winning all the other races all season long across all the top classes? Admittedly there are a fair few Ohlins cars out there too, but Nitron rule the roost.

I think the difference may lie in what I said above and what John said.... If you're just looking for some coilovers then Gaz's prices are hard to ignore. If you want to make your car as good as it can be then you need to spend more money and buy Nitron/Ohlins...

Point 1 and 3 are valid and not disputed by me at all. Point 2, well. Ok it may have been the lower class but they still beat Nitron and Ohlins shocked cars on the way.

You know my feelings on Nitron, I like the product and if I could afford it I would buy it, truth is I can't. That is where Gaz are good. They offer a good product at a price point that suits and serves the markets they are in. They never claim to be a "Nitron". As for "copying" I am sure the guys at Gaz had a Nitron unit to look at in the same way every other damper manufacturer would, sadly there is really only one way to make a monotube and you will find all products are very similar in construction.

Once Nitron come up with a performance unit at the £550 price point or a track focussed unit at £990 we can start comparing (and no, the NSS do not count as a track focussed unit) until that time, Gaz will remain to be a reasonable choice for those on a budget and Nitron will always be the choice of those looking for the best they can and when budget is not an issue. There is no argument to be had on that point.

As for reliability. There have been issues with Gaz and there still will be. I have discussed the returns rate with Gaz and the average output is 3,000 damper units per month and the returns for warranted repairs is 20 units a month, I think that works out at a 0.006% failure rate.

Whiteboy, you have had a miserable experience as did JG but you are in a minority.

[JG]

I was staying out of this but since you bring me into it. I've mellowed I think there is a market for all of them. But in my mellowing there a few things i haven't changed my view on (and this is a purely personal view). I'd steer clear of GAZ Nickels. They aren't worth it. I would advise anyone thinking about playing with suspension to use a cornering force set-up, that set up can be used with NTRs but just as well with GAZ Golds or Sachs. Both of those later two are probably better than Streets, mainly because you can play with spring rates (i'm sure people have or will manage to do so on Streets but it's not something Nitron offer) A set of NTRs is £1250, Gaz gold with CF ARBs are also £1250 (ish). I'd invest in the later. If you can do NTR with CF ARB, then even better (and NTRs are still the best), but it will cost you another 50%. I fundamentally believe we are all setting our cars up way too stiff. 450+ spring rates are for the track and for race cars. if you only drive on the road to get to the track, then go with a compromised set-up. But i absolutely adore driving the vx on the road again after softenening the springs, hardening the valviing and stiffening the roll. That it is also excellent on track save for maybe the fastest corners (though i should have hardened the damping and that would have solved it for turn one at Le Mans) compared to the ultra stiff set-ups is a rather nice added bonus.

[MMSB]

As for reliability. There have been issues with Gaz and there still will be. I have discussed the returns rate with Gaz and the average output is 3,000 damper units per month and the returns for warranted repairs is 20 units a month, I think that works out at a 0.006% failure rate.

20/3000*100=0.67%

It would be cool to get the same statistic for Nitrons

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

Everybody has there own preferances on which setup suits them but guys with CF setups are convinced they have cottoned on to some 'insider info' with their super soft setups. I took SteveA's (a stalwort supporter of CF) car out on the full CF ARB setup and found it far far far too soft! I was considerably slower in his car than the other cars I was luck enough to try out at the National. No slight on Steve as it works for him as he's quick but the car would not remain flat through the bends and would not give me anywhere near the same sort of confidence that mine does.

For me the best 'do-everything' setup is the one I had on my old VXR220. 450/600lbs Eibach Springs on Nitron NTR's was an amazing fast road setup for me and I did thousands of road miles on these rates with no probs at all. At a few clicks of the shock adjustor it was also a brilliant track day setup. I found I had the best of both worlds with this setup and think it more versatile than CF's setups as they cannot (imo) match this setup on track.



As for Nitron Street series.... I do not know anything about this product at all. I know they are manufacture by Nitron-Japan and I would not consider them a direct competitor to the Gaz mono. Nitron believe this, but I told them is an under-estimation of the Gaz mono's performance. However I would put the mono against the NTR which is worse news for the mono really as the NTR's performance, quality, reliability and construction are going to be tough to emulate. Not saying the mono is crap just saying it is very much unproven in VX terms as it's so new to the market. The only thing you have to go on is companies history and so far in VX terms Gaz's reputation is very shakey!!!

£990 is alot of money and is no longer a throw-away product like some of the cheaper Gaz units. To invest nearly a grand in an unproven shock made by a company with loads of VX un-reliability issues is madness when for an extra £200 or so you can get a bomproof set of Nitrons which are renown by all as being superb. People can make their own choices on this but I don't want similar threads in a year of people moaning that their £1000 Mono's are now leaking too..... Why risk it?

This is all my opinion of course and I don't want to fall out with people on here, I'm not starting fights and I'm not upset with anyone. This is a debate on a product I'm passionate about and I'm happy to talk it through

[Mike (Cliffie)]

NSS and Gaz Monotubes are not comparable Jim. They are aimed at and marketed to a different audience. The valving on the NSS is very narrow and designed to work with the spring rates supplied and will not react well to changes of spring rate. The Gaz Mono is far more flexible (although unproven as yet) and can cope with a far wider range of settings to suit track work. BTW, Gaz offer a two year warranty, Nitron offer a year.

[JG]

they have cottoned on to some 'insider info' with their super soft setups.

It isn't insider, its out there. And they are right, it just isn't suited to your very narrow and specialist preference/requirement.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

As for reliability. There have been issues with Gaz and there still will be. I have discussed the returns rate with Gaz and the average output is 3,000 damper units per month and the returns for warranted repairs is 20 units a month, I think that works out at a 0.006% failure rate.

20/3000*100=0.67%

It would be cool to get the same statistic for Nitrons

My maths sucks.

[siztenboots]

if anyone wants to, I can independently dyno your damper across all ranges and conditions and tell you what their difference is between all the different specs including all the secret ones. some of the stuff we do http://www.autofocus...ride_tuning.htm

[Mike (Cliffie)]

they have cottoned on to some 'insider info' with their super soft setups.

It isn't insider, its out there. And they are right, it just isn't suited to your very narrow and specialist preference/requirement.

I liked your car at Le Mans JG but as I said, it was a bit too soft for me on track but I imagine it is lovely on the road. My needs however are different to yours.

This really sums up one of the debates on here that what suits one, will not suit another and the majority of Gaz I sell I for mainly road users with the occasional track day who buy Gaz Gold Pro's.

[JG]

they have cottoned on to some 'insider info' with their super soft setups.

It isn't insider, its out there. And they are right, it just isn't suited to your very narrow and specialist preference/requirement.

I liked your car at Le Mans JG but as I said, it was a bit too soft for me on track but I imagine it is lovely on the road. My needs however are different to yours.

This really sums up one of the debates on here that what suits one, will not suit another and the majority of Gaz I sell I for mainly road users with the occasional track day who buy Gaz Gold Pro's.

and for which they are perfectly suited.