4350 replies to this topic

[GeorgeBC]

Mr Scoffer,
Why do you have to reply to comments in such an arrogant, rude manner? You may well be more talented behind the wheel of your car than most on this forum & even more knowledgable & experienced on setting up cars. But, there is NO need to talk down to people no matter how silly comments may seem to you.

Max

[CocoPops]

Mr Scoffer,
Why do you have to reply to comments in such an arrogant, rude manner? You may well be more talented behind the wheel of your car than most on this forum & even more knowledgable & experienced on setting up cars. But, there is NO need to talk down to people no matter how silly comments may seem to you.

Max

I've read a lot of this thread and you do indeed come across ... ermmm, well not very well.
I realise you're not here to make friends, and thats probably a good thing, but there isn't a single person who doesn't want Mike to do well, so the questions are all good mannered and well intended. So your unhelpful and condescending attitude doesn't help anyone!

[siztenboots]

foyac as the french say

[Scuffers]

may I suggest then that if you have asked a question, been given the answer, just accept it then. I don't have the time or patience to go round in circles with stuff just because somebody won't/can't understand.

[redvts]

Can I just add that you look like nick frost in a cowboy hat scuffers Dunno if this helps the debate any?

[chris_uk]

may I suggest then that if you have asked a question, been given the answer, just accept it then.

I don't have the time or patience to go round in circles with stuff just because somebody won't/can't understand.

You gave a very brief description not really explaining anything and a 'no', if im trying to understand how something works your answers were crap, i like to understand whats going on i am not a person who will just accept an answer because someone told me, i like to know why it it what it is..

-----

My query doesnt stem from understeer killing the tyres i know that it does as does oversteer. It comes from adding more downwards force to a slipping tyre.

As far as i was lead to believe tyres have an optimum slipping angle, might not be as high as 5-6% on a every tyre because tyres are made to do different things i can appreciatete the differences between compounds etc.. But there is still a point at where the slip angle of the tyre happens when cornering. I was also lead to believe you can hear the tyre when it gets into that slip angle, a sort of low tone scrubby sound, over that and they start to screech, but thats not relivent right now, it can be argued over later..

Lets say that a car capable of going round a corner at 100mph and does so within that 3-4% slip angle before it starts to let go and understeer. if you add downwards pressure in the form of downforce (not mass) the tyres will be pushed more towards the ground (faster you go more force applied) thus increasing its level of traction, and because the level of traction has increased the lateral forces (in the form of a lateral g) required to push that tyre over its slip angle also increase. so now that car can take the same corner faster before the tyre starts to give way. So now we are going around the corner at say 125mph (probably not gain this much but for arguments sake just say it does) within its 3-4% slip angle will the tyre not wear faster within its slip angle because of the extra downwards pressure being applied??

If im wrong, which i might be could you try explaining why rather than just a no.

Edited by chris_uk, 27 February 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Dave E]

Acceptance of you answer does not necessarily mean understanding and we want to learn here, not just follow blindly. If you want to impart you obviously huge knowledge on the subject matter then great and I for one thank you. If you don't have the time or patience then just don't bother, yet you do find the time to be rude to honest attempts at understanding. I do find it very funny you moaning about people "not getting it" when your guilty of exactly the same thing with you arrogant attitude. How about this, you take the time to teach us a little of your knowledge and we will try and teach you how to behave in a civilised society.

[fiveoclock]

Aspergers boy

[Scuffers]

I do find it amusing that people seem to have no issues jumping in and calling me names etc... (Where have I even hinted at insulting somebody?) This particular discussion is nothing about the car per say, its about basic physics. Also worth metioning at this point, tyres do not grip the road using friction per sy (until they are sliding)., yes, friction comes into it, but that's not the way to look at it.

[MMSB]

Probably tire wear will decrease with downforce if the slip angle decreases with downforce?

[Mike (Cliffie)]

may I suggest then that if you have asked a question, been given the answer, just accept it then.

I don't have the time or patience to go round in circles with stuff just because somebody won't/can't understand.

It is not just about acceptance of the answer, it is about understanding the answer.

There is a huge difference between can't and won't understand as well.

[MAXR]

I really don't think anyone on here is making fun of you. We are all willing to listen & learn. Clearly you have gained huge experience from setting up cars & making them go around tracks quickly & with that experience comes speed. Your replies are abrupt, uncompromising & usually degrading. Come on Scuffers, just tone your answers down & be more tolerant. Max

[chris_uk]

I do find it amusing that people seem to have no issues jumping in and calling me names etc...

(Where have I even hinted at insulting somebody?)

This particular discussion is nothing about the car per say, its about basic physics.

Also worth metioning at this point, tyres do not grip the road using friction per sy (until they are sliding)., yes, friction comes into it, but that's not the way to look at it.

How about you tell me how a trye grips and which way to look at it then..

[garyk220]

Chris, it is the understeer (or oversteer if considering the rear axle) that causes the excessive heat and premature wear. In this case, the tyre is operating outside of it's optimium slip angle and will very quickly overheat. Using aero to add downforce has 2 advantages; it helps generate higher cornering speeds by adding more downwards force to the tyre and therefore more grip & if adjustable, allows the balance of the car to be adjusted to eradicate or reduce understeer or oversteer within a window of cornering speeds. Using your analogy of an eraser, imagine it is tyre shaped and rolling forwards. Scrubbing it sideways (maximum slip angle) will wear it out the quickest. Hypothetical example, but with say 20kgs (mass + downforce) on the eraser, rolling it forwards will result in very little wear. When cornering, provided it can be kept within the optimum slip angle, the wear will be minimised. Take off the down force, so you now have 10kgs weight (mass) and roll forwards again, the wear will be the same (as near as dammit to make no difference). Now when cornering at the same speed (or more likely a lower speed now the down force has been removed) the eraser will understeer to the point you exceed the optimum slip angle and generate more heat and wear. You can of course turn the no down force eraser within the optimum slip angle, but you will be cornering at a much lower speed.

[chris_uk]

Ok

Edited by chris_uk, 27 February 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[ChrisS1]

Here's a Kumho girl to cheer everyone up

[Mike (Cliffie)]

Thanks Chris, sadly she doesn't come with the tyres.

[Darcini]

Those Kumhos look a tad over inflated to me. Or do I not understand these things correctly?

[Goosenka]

Those Kumhos look a tad over inflated to me.

Or do I not understand these things correctly?

No

[MAXR]

Wow! I think those tyre warmers should be removed to reveal the treads! It looks to me like a firmer side wall than normal?