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Cliffie Double Time Attack 2012+13 Champion!


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#3261 Scuffers

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:18 PM

Chris, it is the understeer (or oversteer if considering the rear axle) that causes the excessive heat and premature wear. In this case, the tyre is operating outside of it's optimium slip angle and will very quickly overheat. Using aero to add downforce has 2 advantages; it helps generate higher cornering speeds by adding more downwards force to the tyre and therefore more grip & if adjustable, allows the balance of the car to be adjusted to eradicate or reduce understeer or oversteer within a window of cornering speeds.

Using your analogy of an eraser, imagine it is tyre shaped and rolling forwards. Scrubbing it sideways (maximum slip angle) will wear it out the quickest. Hypothetical example, but with say 20kgs (mass + downforce) on the eraser, rolling it forwards will result in very little wear. When cornering, provided it can be kept within the optimum slip angle, the wear will be minimised. Take off the down force, so you now have 10kgs weight (mass) and roll forwards again, the wear will be the same (as near as dammit to make no difference). Now when cornering at the same speed (or more likely a lower speed now the down force has been removed) the eraser will understeer to the point you exceed the optimum slip angle and generate more heat and wear.

You can of course turn the no down force eraser within the optimum slip angle, but you will be cornering at a much lower speed.

to a point, correct...

other bit here is that slip angle is not as obvious as you might think.

a tyre will have a 'slip angle' even though it's not actually sliding (as in the contact surface is not moving relative to the road)

what is happening is the rubber is 'walking' across the road, this is more the case with treaded tyres as the 'blocks' of the tyres squirm under load, then as the tyre rotates, it releases them and they spring back, so if you can imagine for example, a tyre with 50 blocks around the circumference and each block moves 1mm under load, and this is going on as the wheel rotates, so you have 1mm x 50 blocks per turn, so 50mm of 'slip' per turn, ~1840mm round the tyre, gives you 2.7% slip angle without the tyre sliding at all... (this is massively over-simplifying it and there's a lot more going on that just this, but you get the idea).

to some extent this still happens with slicks, in that the whole section of 'tread' will deform, this is also some of how the tyres head up (along with the side walls flexing).

so, back to the point, even with a significant slip angle, the tyre is NOT SLIDING as in being dragged across the road, and if it's not sliding, then it's wear rate is vastly less.

Adding more downforce to a tyre (without the associated mass of dead weight) will increase the tyres grip and reduce the tendency to slide.

Lastly, Mass has inertia/momentum, downforce (from Aero) does not.

PS. if people continue to bitch at me, I will not bother answering any more, makes no odds to me, my goal is in the performance of Mikes car this year (compared to last) nothing more, I choose to share stuff with the board, and I will just choose not to if you don't keep a lid on the insults and bitching.

Edited by Scuffers, 27 February 2013 - 01:21 PM.


#3262 Mike (Cliffie)

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:20 PM

Just goes to show, all it takes is a pair of breasts to diffuse a situation.

#3263 Asheey

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:24 PM

Im unsure if that top is adding mass or downforce to prevent them from slipping. Can someone explain?

#3264 ChrisS1

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:27 PM

Twin airbags.....safety first :borg:

#3265 SteveA

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:40 PM


Great explanation, thanks thumbsup

#3266 Zoobeef

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:02 PM

She'd get it. Lucky bitch

#3267 The Batman

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:05 PM

I love popcorn and boobies Is it wrong that the word boobies makes me giggle?

Edited by joe_589, 27 February 2013 - 02:08 PM.


#3268 cnrandall

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:19 PM

Tyres... BIG subject. Some key facts: Tyres will generate more 'grip' as you increase vertical load. Increasing weight increases vertical load but also increases the work the tyre has to do. Adding downforce creates vertical load with a very small weight penalty. Tyres are load sensitive. Ask them to do too much, too quickly and they will slide. Tyres generate grip through by creating localised chemical bonds with the tarmac. This is why as they 'go off' with excess heat as the chemicals in the tyre evaporate. As soon as you apply any load to the tyre (lat/long-g) it creates a slip angle. Every tyre has an optimum slip angle at which it will create the most 'grip'. Tyre wear is very complex, for sure if you are 'sliding' (i.e. past the tyres optimum slip angle) you will damage the tyre but there is much more to it than that. Set up plays a big part and you can have a car that generates lots of grip but shags the tyres or a car that generates less grip but looks after the tyres. Both is nice, but hard to acheive!

#3269 siztenboots

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:29 PM

It was Sam on the TDI stand autosport that pointed out something , static grip vs dynamic grip. The example he gave , a car standing still , will resist from sliding against quite a big force , yet at motorway speeds just a small side gust will change its direction

#3270 The Batman

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:11 PM

To lighten the mood

Posted Image

#3271 Bargi

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:21 PM

To lighten the mood


To late, Already done with titty pic, back under your rock Joe! :D

#3272 chris_uk

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:24 PM

So was i wrong by assuming the tyre slides when in its optimum slip angle? So does it only start to slide outside that optimum angle? So... the slip angle as i understand it is the angle between the direction the tyre is facing and the actual direction the tyre is going so the bigger the difference the bigger the slip angle. The bigger that angle the more slip you are experiencing. I assumed that as soon as the tyre points a different way from its intended direction then the tyre is slipping. Surely the faster you are going around a corner, means the faster the tyre is turning so when it does slip past its slip angle and enters an understeer state am i right in thinking it would wear faster?

Edited by chris_uk, 27 February 2013 - 03:25 PM.


#3273 The Batman

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:29 PM

There's always one Chris :lol:

#3274 chris_uk

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:37 PM

Im not arguing joe.. Im trying to understand..

#3275 Mike (Cliffie)

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 04:32 PM

So was i wrong by assuming the tyre slides when in its optimum slip angle? So does it only start to slide outside that optimum angle?

So... the slip angle as i understand it is the angle between the direction the tyre is facing and the actual direction the tyre is going so the bigger the difference the bigger the slip angle. The bigger that angle the more slip you are experiencing. I assumed that as soon as the tyre points a different way from its intended direction then the tyre is slipping.

Surely the faster you are going around a corner, means the faster the tyre is turning so when it does slip past its slip angle and enters an understeer state am i right in thinking it would wear faster?


Just look at the tits Chris.

#3276 smiley

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 04:35 PM

Just look at the tits Chris.


How much to have that as a sticker on the TA car this year?

#3277 techieboy

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 04:36 PM

:lol: Great idea though. :D

#3278 cnrandall

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:04 PM

So was i wrong by assuming the tyre slides when in its optimum slip angle? So does it only start to slide outside that optimum angle?

So... the slip angle as i understand it is the angle between the direction the tyre is facing and the actual direction the tyre is going so the bigger the difference the bigger the slip angle. The bigger that angle the more slip you are experiencing. I assumed that as soon as the tyre points a different way from its intended direction then the tyre is slipping.

Surely the faster you are going around a corner, means the faster the tyre is turning so when it does slip past its slip angle and enters an understeer state am i right in thinking it would wear faster?


Yes, as soon as the tyre has any sort of load applied to it (ie a direction change as a reaction to a force) there is a slip angle generated. Imagine walking down the street with somebody leaning on your left shoulder. You would crab across and that's exactly what the tyre tread is doing.

So... you're looking at it slightly the wrong way... What you see as a 'slide' is the tyre passing over its optimum slip angle. For example, watch an historic race car around a track and it looks like its sliding around but reality is that the angles you see are a factor of the tyres optimum slip angle, so the car will hold peak 'G' at 4-5 degrees whereas a modern single seater would hold peak 'G' at less than 1 degree.

#3279 Darcini

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:08 PM


Just look at the tits Chris.


How much to have that as a sticker on the TA car this year?

:lol:

Great idea though. :D


Let's have an orkshen, highest bidder wins the rights to have the sticker on Mike's car, all proceeds to the race fund :lol:

#3280 ChrisS1

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:13 PM


Just look at the tits Chris.


How much to have that as a sticker on the TA car this year?

:lol: :lol:




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