4350 replies to this topic

[techieboy]

[Mike (Cliffie)]

Look what an eBay searched dragged up

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item1c33243430

 

[Exmantaa]

That conversation has already happened Matt and we are waiting on Lee to feed back his experience with the TMAP. My fear is that Lee will not have driven his car with the, how can I put this, gusto with which I rag mine.

 

Jon can easily flash my ECU with the old larger pulley map by post and all will be fine. Wish we had fitted the larger pulley at the weekend, I just didn't think.

 

The one thing Nick, Lee and I have in common is we are all running the smaller pulley (2.75)  whereas the other CMS customer (also a Nick) has the 2.9.

 

Did you guys do any temperature measurent/logging on the intake temps with that small pulley?

Said it before, but my mate's Harrop reached 87*C during the Zolder trackday a few weeks ago...   With a 3.15" pulley, PA-rad, dual pass etc. Only pushing 1.25 bar boost max and the cars 1st trackday so not even full twat everywhere.

That are seriously unhealthy temps and he's thinking about fitting a 85mm pulley for now and/or water injection,

 

For a Harrop, the 2,5bar Bosch TMAP should be ok. You're doing something wrong if you're pushing >1.5 bar boost through an SC... 

Edited by Exmantaa, 11 June 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[techieboy]

Did you guys do any temperature measurent/logging on the intake temps with that small pulley?

 

Nope. Temp sensor is still pre-charger, so next to useless numbers.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

 

That conversation has already happened Matt and we are waiting on Lee to feed back his experience with the TMAP. My fear is that Lee will not have driven his car with the, how can I put this, gusto with which I rag mine.

 

Jon can easily flash my ECU with the old larger pulley map by post and all will be fine. Wish we had fitted the larger pulley at the weekend, I just didn't think.

 

The one thing Nick, Lee and I have in common is we are all running the smaller pulley (2.75)  whereas the other CMS customer (also a Nick) has the 2.9.

 

Did you guys do any temperature measurent/logging on the intake temps with that small pulley?

 

 

No.

[Scuffers]

 

For a Harrop, the 2,5bar Bosch TMAP should be ok. You're doing something wrong if you're pushing >1.5 bar boost through an SC... 

 

not the point....

 

you should never run a MAP sensor anything like close to it's range limit's, quite apart from accuracy issues at the limit's, your also likely to have issues with transient spikes taking you over the limit...

 

for example, with a SC setup, if your engine miss-fires for whatever reason (be it shift-cutting/traction control/etc) the boost will spike as the engine is not firing, thus the exhaust is not scavenging any more, the charger is still pushing, MAP goes up.

 

Had this with cars when we fitted sequentials, on upshift they would trigger boost-limit-cut (over-boost protection), took a whilst to figure out what the root was, but for a bar of boost, it would spike to >1.5 Bar, way about the (set) limit.

 

I have also seen people blow map sensors like this by the spikes hammering the sensors.

 

if your running 1.5Bar boost, 3Bar sensor is the minimum IMHO.

[techieboy]

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

 

The 3.0bar GM TMAP sensor would make much more sense to install. The question is whether Courtenay can bodge the fuel and ignition tables enough to cope with the readings that a 3.0bar sensor will be giving. The SC mapping on the standard Delphi ECU is already a bit of a bodge (albeit pretty much spot on now for the circa 250bhp Stage 2 M62 conversion), the bodge gets a bit bigger once a Harrop is thrown into the equation, bigger again once larger injectors are added to the mix, then bigger still if a 2.5bar TMAP is added and possibly larger still if a 3.0bar TMAP is used. We/they (Courtenay/Klassen) just don't have enough access to the various tables to be able to cope with anything and everything thrown at it. That's why we tried to convert NickB777's car to run the Bosch ECU from the VXT to control his Harrop as that's pretty much entirely open to tweak. And ultimately, why he's decided to cough up the necessary money to get the Dutch ECU reflash that makes the ECU into a semi-standalone kind of setup, where self mapping is possible.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

When does nick get his Dutch harrop running I'm looking forward to the results

[techieboy]

He said he was sending his ECU off to Peter today. So hopefully back on again in a week. Maybe?

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

He said he was sending his ECU off to Peter today. So hopefully back on again in a week. Maybe?

Probably less than that, mine took a week with a bank holiday on the middle

[siztenboots]

When does nick get his Dutch harrop running I'm looking forward to the results

 

don't hold your breath, the Harrop is still an ongoing work in progress since 2008

[Scuffers]

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

 

The 3.0bar GM TMAP sensor would make much more sense to install. The question is whether Courtenay can bodge the fuel and ignition tables enough to cope with the readings that a 3.0bar sensor will be giving.

OK, so what your saying is that they can only edit the tables, not the load/sensor scales?

[techieboy]

don't hold your breath, the Harrop is still an ongoing work in progress since 2008

 

 

No reason why Nick shouldn't be up and running the day he refits the new ECU, as it will come with a reasonable base map. Maybe another day of concerted effort to do all of the self-learning and hit all of (or most of) the load cells and away he goes. Hopefully, he's sourcing the Bosch 3.0bar TMAP to fit along with his new bigger Siemens injectors. Only thing he really needs to do is to wire in the TMAP in place of the separate MAP and IAT sensors which is a case of cutting a couple of wires.

[techieboy]

OK, so what your saying is that they can only edit the tables, not the load/sensor scales?

 

As I understand it yes and then only some of the hundreds of tables that are apparently in there. They did make some progress finding and changing the injector scaling side of things to allow us to run the Astra VXR injectors with just a change of a single value. They've been trying to get hold of the original DAMOS files for the ECU calibration for 10+ years with no joy despite getting close a couple of times. Delphi appear to be a lot less leaky than Bosch when it comes to those.

 

Or just as likely, Delphi/GM/Lotus just binned anything VX related about 30 seconds after the last VX rolled out of Hethel.

[NickB787]

Although the ecu goes today, I have 2 more days of work on the car then 6 days away working... I think I have most things ready now, just awaiting the WI kit.  I'll post on my ecu change thread so not to clutter Mikes up

[Goosenka]

OK, so what your saying is that they can only edit the tables, not the load/sensor scales?

  As I understand it yes and then only some of the hundreds of tables that are apparently in there. They did make some progress finding and changing the injector scaling side of things to allow us to run the Astra VXR injectors with just a change of a single value. They've been trying to get hold of the original DAMOS files for the ECU calibration for 10+ years with no joy despite getting close a couple of times. Delphi appear to be a lot less leaky than Bosch when it comes to those.   Or just as likely, Delphi/GM/Lotus just binned anything VX related about 30 seconds after the last VX rolled out of Hethel.

Whats so fcuking secret about it? I mean its hardly National Security is it? Maybe I am being naive.

[techieboy]

Well I guess there are some IP issues and OEM's (and soon the EU) certainly don't want you fcuking about with the ECU and the vital systems that control your car and at best breaking something on your engine or, at worst, doing something stupid that fcuks up their oh so well calibrated traction control/stability programs and causes an accident. It was bad enough getting them all to agree to a standard OBD protocol for non-maindealer fault diagnosis and took the Americans to force them into doing it.

 

Try getting Microsoft to release their proprietary networking or security code. They'll happily give you access to API's for certain functionality but when it comes down to their proprietary code, they tell you to fcuk off. Things like SAMBA networking for *nix was a real bodge and mostly just (badly in a lot of cases) reverse engineered to mainly work, which is exactly what Courtenay or, more accurately, Klassen have been stuck doing.

[CocoPops]

Does beg the question, what happens if the relationship between CS and Klassen changes, or Klassen shuts up shop....

[VXT Tim]

Does beg the question, what happens if the relationship between CS and Klassen changes, or Klassen shuts up shop....

Tubby prices go through the roof

[smiley]

Does beg the question, what happens if the relationship between CS and Klassen changes, or Klassen shuts up shop....

 

It´s a weird cooperation to begin with. CMS charges a few hours at most, for a full day of dyno use, untill klasen get´s out of bed, thumb out of ass, and looking at his remote desktop session to key in the same old sa old for 10 years.

Not sure how many monies CMS sends him for that.

 

If you go directly to klasen with your SC, you´re over a K for a remap. (euro money).

 

I really don´t see how CMS can keep this up. (i am f*cking jealous though, on those nice prices and deals, i just don´t understand the business model for this)