2141 replies to this topic

[LazyDonkey]

Even the no campaign have given up trying to say Scotland can't afford it. But here it is again today...in the financial times http://archive.is/vcQ78

That same article also says

n a research paper this week, James Knightley, senior economist at ING, said the high transition costs of separation and uncertainties over currency and the terms of EU membership meant that the material benefits of independence were “far from clear”.

The costs to set up the new indy Scotland are still up in the air. If someone said "I'll save you money on your mortgage, you just need to sign up to this new product and pay a small fee" you wouldn't do it until you knew what that fee was. No one knows how much a new DVLA, hmrc etc etc etc would cost to set up. Unless I've missed those figures.....

[G-Bob]

This is one of my arguments. Knowing how much it costs to put in new systems properly, I can't see how it can be done cheaply. I can't see the benefits being realised in my lifetime.

[LY_Scott]

I hear what you are saying but the three of us know enough about IT to know the DVLA and Passport offices are essentially just managing a secure database and processing documents. Extracting Vehicles/Drivers from Scottish postcodes and persons born in Scotland for passports from the current databases is not hard or costly in theory.

 

We already have DVLA offices and Passport office. There's not that many of us.

 

But I agree that with any public project the costs can get into take the p*ss territory quickly even for the most simple things. Professional services and branding, website setups, contact centre etc. But it's all bread and butter stuff.

 

I think there is also plan to amalgamate a few of them.

 

There are answers to this somewhere I'll try and find them.

[LazyDonkey]

I think the fact that we're all in IT should make us terrified about the costs.

We've all worked on projects that started as simple lift and shift and turned into "well while we are here......" and ended up costing a small fortune. 

 

What's the average bill for a phone installation these days Scott?  I'm guessing the final bill is some way higher than the original quote from Siemens or whoever. 

 

Universal credits has cost £91 million so far.   How much did self assessment cost to implement ?    These were all, in theory, pretty simple projects.  I've seen no evidence that the Scottish government would be any better at it that the UK governement. 

 

On the flight down this morning i came up with the following systems that would need to be split up;

- Passport

- Benefits & Pensions

- DVLA

- HMRC

- plus any other government body that has employs people north and south of the border. 

 

I'm sure there are more. 

 

You should note that the local DVLA offices have recently been shut......

Edited by LazyDonkey, 04 February 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[LY_Scott]

I agreed costs in the public sector projects get into the take the p*ss territory quickly.

 

 

 

 

[G-Bob]

How many projects have you been on where is should be a simple "lift and shift" and it seems like a no brainer, and then the business guys come along with a million bits of logic and legislation and suddenly it's a 9month-year long project.

The systems itself isn't that expensive but because it's government you have to get a hundred consultants in to advise, analyse or build it at £500-£1000 a day over the length of the project.

 

You wouldn't think it would be that hard to sell beer, but in my work we spend millions every year in my team alone on projects to move systems and keep up with whats happening.   That's one business. 

Now think about a system like the HMRC that enforces all of the rules of Tax and you have a minefield.

 

[G-Bob]

 

You wouldn't think it would be that hard to sell beer, but in my work we spend millions every year in my team alone on projects to move systems and keep up with whats happening.   That's one business. 

Now think about a system like the HMRC that enforces all of the rules of Tax and you have a minefield.

 

 

I bet they have a lot more than 1 system as well.  Think about how many crappy old legacy systems your business has and then multiply it by 10 because it's the government.

[Mangham54]

 

 

You wouldn't think it would be that hard to sell beer, but in my work we spend millions every year in my team alone on projects to move systems and keep up with whats happening.   That's one business. 

Now think about a system like the HMRC that enforces all of the rules of Tax and you have a minefield.

 

 

I bet they have a lot more than 1 system as well.  Think about how many crappy old legacy systems your business has and then multiply it by 10 because it's the government.

 

 

 

I would not want to set up a new HMRC, the one in existence is a messy and very complex and expensive system and I can't see that it could be simplified by the break of the union .

 

Which state would a Scotsman living in London pay tax to? I presume E-W-NI, if the business was attached to the local HMRC office.

 

However if he/she has a second address in Scotland and partakes in consultation work over the border, the HMRC systems are going to need to work together (I would have thought) to avoid allowing said individual to 'double-up' their tax allowance.

 

I can see that breaking up the current HMRC system into S v E-W-NI groups, when running the same tax system could work... but what would happen if different terms apply in the two states? I have family that work in Edinburgh and on the oil rigs, who are employed London-based businesses, but reside in hotel accommodation when over the border. Does the income-tax revenue belong to the Scots or not?

 

I really must read up a bit more, as the topic intrigues me enormously - but trying to find impartial correspondents (plus having the time to invest in something that is merely an interest) is difficult.

Edited by Mangham54, 04 February 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[G-Bob]

Chris, I have no idea how it would work but I suppose it would be the same as people working abroad who do their tax return back home.  It'll be the same as companies who are registered elsewhere but trade or "work" in the uk.

 

I'm sure the Oracle will be along shortly!  

[Harry Hornet]

 

 

 

You wouldn't think it would be that hard to sell beer, but in my work we spend millions every year in my team alone on projects to move systems and keep up with whats happening.   That's one business. 

Now think about a system like the HMRC that enforces all of the rules of Tax and you have a minefield.

 

 

I bet they have a lot more than 1 system as well.  Think about how many crappy old legacy systems your business has and then multiply it by 10 because it's the government.

 

 

 

I would not want to set up a new HMRC, the one in existence is a messy and very complex and expensive system and I can't see that it could be simplified by the break of the union .

 

Which state would a Scotsman living in London pay tax to? I presume E-W-NI, if the business was attached to the local HMRC office.

 

However if he/she has a second address in Scotland and partakes in consultation work over the border, the HMRC systems are going to need to work together (I would have thought) to avoid allowing said individual to 'double-up' their tax allowance.

 

I can see that breaking up the current HMRC system into S v E-W-NI groups, when running the same tax system could work... but what would happen if different terms apply in the two states? I have family that work in Edinburgh and on the oil rigs, who are employed London-based businesses, but reside in hotel accommodation when over the border. Does the income-tax revenue belong to the Scots or not?

 

I really must read up a bit more, as the topic intrigues me enormously - but trying to find impartial correspondents (plus having the time to invest in something that is merely an interest) is difficult.

 

 

really no different if you work in Europe, especially Germany and Netherlands, their goverments have clamped down that every one must be paid locally if the majoirity of your work is in that country and you pay local taxes. Then when you bring money back to uk you get a double whammy, even if you say youved paid locally

 

If you are employed in Eng and paid in Eng, the pay tax in Eng, but then you have a problem of the 60 day rule...but then working in Scot and less than 60 days spent in Eng then you could get paid off shore  ..but would Scot bring in local law so you have to pay local tax cos thats where you are working or residing

 

this has stopped alot of contracts being worthwhile commuting to EU  as you dont get paid gross back in the Eng 

 

..summary ..it would one almighty feck up   

[LY_Scott]

Nah, I'd agree. You have to start thinking about Scotland as another country. It be the same as if I got sent to France for a week for work.

 

I'd guess it depends where you were paid or something but wouldn't be any different working in Scotland than it would be if you did a bit of work in Spain.

[LY_Scott]

What Harry said

[Claws]

Also, I have 2 private registrations, which by rights belong to the DVLA. That's a bit of a kick in the nuts

[LazyDonkey]

Id not even thought about the income tax thing. That would be a pain in the arse for me. Working for a London based company but splitting my time 50:50 between there and Scotland. Most likely id be taxed in England I guess?

Edited by LazyDonkey, 05 February 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[Craig S]

Id not even thought about the income tax thing. That would be a pain in the arse for me. Working for a London based company but splitting my time 50:50 between there and Scotland. Most likely id be taxed in England I guess?

 

This would be a real pain for me as 90% of my income is from London so then it would be an EU state income with EU VAT but all my company spending would be Scottish VAT (if that existed). To be honest I would move the company to a PO box in London and save the hassle of changing VAT and company registration. So all in all a loss to the Scottish economy (all be it a tiny one). I bet I am not the only one that would move company HQ to save the hassle though.

[RabnaKS]

This independance furor smacks me of when you're kids & you think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.  You complain at how much board you have to pay to your parents, without realising where you really are better off.  Ok I agree it's slightly under playing the situation.  But I haven't heard anything other than petty arguments & I'm sure Mr Salmond is just a man who will take his ball home if he doesn't get his own way.  I know a few Scots & spoke to them I work with one guy, who can't understand why Scotland needs independence.  But then again, I expect because they live in England he won't get a vote?

[Rosssco]

Hopefully now the SNP can reveal their currency "Plan B"  - which they won't of course as the other two options are a Scottish currency (seriously unpredictable) or the Euro (political suicide given the current state of affairs).

 

I mean, there is a Plan B, right..?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-26147783

[myles]

Hopefully now the SNP can reveal their currency "Plan B"  - which they won't of course as the other two options are a Scottish currency (seriously unpredictable) or the Euro (political suicide given the current state of affairs).

 

I mean, there is a Plan B, right..?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-26147783

 

 

Being bullied?! No-one is evicting Scotland, are they?

[Mangham54]

Given all that I have heard from the two fishwives (Salmond and Sturgeon) I am seriously getting to the point of saying - 'Scotland do what you like, at least then you can stop whingeing about how unfairly you are treated in this union. You arent alone in. But if you want to be independent then expect to be treated as a seperate entity entirely.' Deal with your own crises (good luck in finding funding to deal with floods / storms / drought, manage your own spending and deal with Europe and your own currency. If you expect to piggback on the £ then expect to pay for the priviledge. Don't expect that the remaining UK states will treat you favourably, as is it really in our interest to do so? I know this is a and that most of my points are unsubstantiated, but I am really sick to death of the attempts at political pointscoring. That also applies to the Conservatives, Liberals & Labour. I haven't really heard much of how UKIP would treat a 'free scotland' - but I wouldn't and be suprised for them to say we nees border controls set along the border, we wouldn't want people to see Scotland as a UK version of Cuba now would we. I know this will inflame Scott, it is not my intention - but the more I read the more furious I get with the 'happy clappy we are going to do politics so much better on our own... I honestly honestly hope they can, just to show the shower of sh*t we currently have what to do. But at the same time I honestly honestly can't see it happening and fear that an independant scotland could be a worse place because of it.

[myles]

Did I read somewhere that Scotland would loan a squadron of Typhoons from the UK to help them along? Which brings me to the question of the armed forces; where are they going to recruit from, because the Scots that want to be in the military are already in the military. It will be difficult to motivate 15000+ suitable potential troops to join up.