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Scotland Independence


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#561 siztenboots

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:06 PM

its an interesting aspect how much of the UK internet infrastructure Scotland is reliant upon , and the legacy old transatlantic links , most now effectively bypass around the North Sea and do not make landfall in Scotland.

 

The estimated value of the telecommunications industry in Scottish waters is £1.02 bn , which would remain part of rUK.

 

An indicative GVA of £2.7 billion was estimated for telecom cables based on the number of international phone calls. However, this figure does not include the value of internet and data capacity which are now the primary commodity and which are increasing.

 

The true value of telecommunication cables should incorporate both the value of the traffic which is carried and the significance held by the UK as a key strategic location for international systems looking to reach markets in America, Europe, Africa and Asia.

 

Without its own internet structure Scotland would be very isolated.



#562 Rosssco

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:07 PM

John Swinney said in response:

 

"Standard Life's comments show exactly why our proposals for a formal currency area are the right proposals, why they are in the best interests of business on both sides of the border and why that is what will be implemented by both governments.

 

This also shows why the UK government have a duty to engage properly with the issues instead of issuing irresponsible threats.

 

The UK government are engaged in a systematic campaign of bluff, bluster and bullying, but we have already seen the UK government accept that it will remain legally liable for all UK debt, and the PM offer his support for Scotland's membership of the EU - the issue of currency will be no different."

 

The SNP never fail to amuse, surprise, and worry me in equal measures... What don't they get? The very reason companies MAY consider relocating is singularly due to their incompetence at proposing a viable currency option, that would fit both Scotland AND the rUK, and the resulting uncertainty it creates..



#563 G-Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:35 PM

Standard Life will go wherever will make them money.

It's the uncertainty at the moment that they don't like, but if everything comes up smelling of roses you can guarentee they'll stay put.



#564 Rosssco

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:51 PM

Standard Life will go wherever will make them money.

It's the uncertainty at the moment that they don't like, but if everything comes up smelling of roses you can guarentee they'll stay put.

 

Its not a matter of where will make them money, it's where they will have the same financial rules and governance as 90% of their customers, i.e. in rUK. What they have basically said is that they are concerned that the current (lack of) currency proposals would have the effect of having them based in a country with different financial regulations to the country where they make their money. It's a completely sensible approach. The reason this is important is that it may reflect coming sentiment (that have been voiced before) from major organisations that would find themselves on the wrong side of the border from their largest market, so perhaps not immediately, but over time it is sensible for them to shift these operations. This a wholly pragmatic business approach and not subject to feelings of nationality or "it's as much our Standard Life as much as theirs..."

 

All the SNP say is.... We will have a currency union, so it's fine, business as normal.

 

When do you expect it will smell of roses then Bob (should it not be smell of thistles? :P)

 

The uncertainty in the event of a majority yes vote will last for years potentially, throughout the discussions that will only take 18 months apparently. Its not only the lack of currency union that is problematic, its the future uncertainty as to what currency Scotland would use when they realised that the currency union / non-union was abandoned - its pretty obvious that Sterling will only ever be a temporary currency..


Edited by Rosssco, 27 February 2014 - 01:53 PM.


#565 siztenboots

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:58 PM

can anyone find a historic link about when roughly the island was split into nations of Cornwall, England, Wales, Scotland ?

 

if anyone has a reason to split, then surely Cornwall , it is practically severed from the adjoining lands to the east by the River Tamar, which runs almost from sea to sea.



#566 Gedi

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:00 PM

So basically,

- most businesses which serve the UK will leave migrate out of Scotland

- more jobs for the rUK, which makes for a stronger economy

- as an added bonus, we get to watch Scotland collapse without UK backing

 

Maybe we should be pushing for the Scots to vote yes!



#567 siztenboots

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:01 PM

how about one out , one in .

 

Welcome back Brittany



#568 Rosssco

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:04 PM

 

- as an added bonus, we get to watch Scotland collapse without UK backing

 

 

 

Why would that be a bonus?



#569 Gedi

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:06 PM

 

 

- as an added bonus, we get to watch Scotland collapse without UK backing

 

 

 

Why would that be a bonus?

 

 

The comedy aspect :)



#570 Rosssco

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:09 PM

 

 

 

- as an added bonus, we get to watch Scotland collapse without UK backing

 

 

 

Why would that be a bonus?

 

 

The comedy aspect :)

 

 

I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you, but you need to get out more.. ;)



#571 LY_Scott

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:27 PM

I work round the corner at similar business and have seen the tv crews all day so this has had a fair bit of exposure, interesting.

Standard Life will go wherever will make them money. It's the uncertainty at the moment that they don't like, but if everything comes up smelling of roses you can guarentee they'll stay put.

  This. They also don't like the idea of leaving the EU. What do you think they'd do in the event of a possible UKIP surge in 2015 pushing an in out referendum in 2017? They could possibly be better off in Scotland with a propsed revision of corporation tax and a desire to stay in the EU. It's sensible posturing from a business looking to quite rightly protect themselves and as they have stated they have made no plans to move anything they are simple making precautionary moves. They are quite happy where they are. Bear in mind the massive cost and risks that a move also brings for a company that size. It's a giant game of poker now and I feel on this one the Westminster parties (who are running the no vote remember) have the strong hand by not backing down on the currency union yet. This will make them dig their heels in no matter what the sensible approach is. The irish had to fight to get independence but they had a currency union for 50 years. But it'd be nuts to have one with Scotland right after a completely democratic seperation? Bearing in mind our contribution to the very institutions we're being denied access to. There's a proposal to rework the Barnet formula to lower the Scottish budget by 4.6 Billion that's 15% if we remain in the UK. Just ponder that a second no voters. We already contribute more than we take out. Ponder that renewables funding powers for the Scottish parliament were removed by a lords amendment only a couple of months ago. There's no rosey utopia on the other side of a No vote. There's no extra powers, there's nothing promised. They don't have anything telling you what will come from a no vote for a reason. Ponder a westminster second chamber with unelected individuals taking £300 a day for turning up for an hour then they get a say on "welfare reform" and can strip powers from a democratically elected parliament trying to push the massive energy making potential of Scotland. Look at the real figures for benefit fraud and then compare them to tax avoidance. Which is getting more airtime? Consider £80billion being spend on HS2 link to lower the journey from London to Birmingham by 20 fcuking minutes and then consider what difference a £50 million reopening of the east coast line would make to an area like Leven/Methil. Consider that the massive transport budget in billion that this government has announcement has no work whatsoever happening in Scotland. Consider the McCrone report if you think anyone is giving you an honest opinion. Consider the UK government using uk money and civil servants to lobby 34 foreign nations about the independence debate despite clear campaign funding limits and a "It's a debate for the Scottish people" stance everytime they are asked to a proper square go or meet anyone in Scotland to answer questions? Wouldn't you like to have the chance for us to decide what is best for us and our money? Compare Dubai and Easterhouse and consider Scotland has produced more oil in the past 30 years than Dubai and Abu Dhabi combined.

#572 LY_Scott

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:45 PM

Without its own internet structure Scotland would be very isolated.

Isolated how? I doubt switzerland has any transatlantic links but they are still using the internet. It's not a gift to us, the businesses and end users up here are paying for the telecoms infrastructure that we use. LINX also built an IXP in Edinburgh tail end of last year so all of our inter Scotland traffic no longer trombones through Docklands.

#573 G-Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:46 PM

I don't think everything will be perfect if we leave, not in my lifetime anyway.

 

Scott - What's Dubai's healthcare, welfare support services and army like?  Are they spending the same us us on them?

 



#574 JG

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:48 PM


Wouldn't you like to have the chance for us to decide what is best for us and our money?

 

In the end, that seems to be the only argument. 

 

And it isn't a very strong one. 

 

There are two arguments: 

  • given the apathy of voters to vote, for you to decide what is best for your money you'd have to get the turnout to improve somewhat from the current 30% rate. 
  • You want closer ties with Europe (given that it seems to be the only choice in the quickly shrinking options), which means that you, like all of us, won't have a choice anyway. Infact, given that Scotland would be negotiating a new agreement, the current opt outs (designed to give the UK more 'of a chance to to decided what we do with our money' would no longer exist, so intact you'd have less chance to decide what you do with your money. 

 

 



#575 LY_Scott

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:51 PM

I don't think everything will be perfect if we leave, not in my lifetime anyway.   Scott - What's Dubai's healthcare, welfare support services and army like?  Are they spending the same us us on them?

I don't think it will be either but I guess the difference is I think it will be worth it and in a country our size we really have a chance to do something different. What we have now isn't working.

#576 LY_Scott

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:54 PM

so infact you'd have less chance to decide what you do with your money. 

Can you define that one? We'd most certainly have a lot more say than we do now for starters.

#577 Rosssco

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:59 PM

I work round the corner at similar business and have seen the tv crews all day so this has had a fair bit of exposure, interesting.


Standard Life will go wherever will make them money.
It's the uncertainty at the moment that they don't like, but if everything comes up smelling of roses you can guarentee they'll stay put.

 
This.

They also don't like the idea of leaving the EU. What do you think they'd do in the event of a possible UKIP surge in 2015 pushing an in out referendum in 2017? They could possibly be better off in Scotland with a propsed revision of corporation tax and a desire to stay in the EU.

It's sensible posturing from a business looking to quite rightly protect themselves and as they have stated they have made no plans to move anything they are simple making precautionary moves. They are quite happy where they are. Bear in mind the massive cost and risks that a move also brings for a company that size.

It's a giant game of poker now and I feel on this one the Westminster parties (who are running the no vote remember) have the strong hand by not backing down on the currency union yet. This will make them dig their heels in no matter what the sensible approach is. The irish had to fight to get independence but they had a currency union for 50 years. But it'd be nuts to have one with Scotland right after a completely democratic seperation? Bearing in mind our contribution to the very institutions we're being denied access to.

There's a proposal to rework the Barnet formula to lower the Scottish budget by 4.6 Billion that's 15% if we remain in the UK. Just ponder that a second no voters. We already contribute more than we take out. Ponder that renewables funding powers for the Scottish parliament were removed by a lords amendment only a couple of months ago. There's no rosey utopia on the other side of a No vote. There's no extra powers, there's nothing promised. They don't have anything telling you what will come from a no vote for a reason.
Ponder a westminster second chamber with unelected individuals taking £300 a day for turning up for an hour then they get a say on "welfare reform" and can strip powers from a democratically elected parliament trying to push the massive energy making potential of Scotland. Look at the real figures for benefit fraud and then compare them to tax avoidance. Which is getting more airtime?
Consider £80billion being spend on HS2 link to lower the journey from London to Birmingham by 20 fcuking minutes and then consider what difference a £50 million reopening of the east coast line would make to an area like Leven/Methil. Consider that the massive transport budget in billion that this government has announcement has no work whatsoever happening in Scotland.

Consider the McCrone report if you think anyone is giving you an honest opinion. Consider the UK government using uk money and civil servants to lobby 34 foreign nations about the independence debate despite clear campaign funding limits and a "It's a debate for the Scottish people" stance everytime they are asked to a proper square go or meet anyone in Scotland to answer questions?

Wouldn't you like to have the chance for us to decide what is best for us and our money?

Compare Dubai and Easterhouse and consider Scotland has produced more oil in the past 30 years than Dubai and Abu Dhabi combined.

 

 

Few points Scott ;)

 

1) The Irish never had a currency union with the UK, they had the punt which was pegged to the Pound, although I think the Pound may have been accepted there for a period of time, so it made sense.

2) We won't be denied access to any institutions, we would be a different country, hence different (or replicated) institutions

3)The whole "we get less out than we put in" thing has been spun multiple times, and TBH, I'm not really sure its true. If so, why so worried about the Barnett formula if it's a disadvantage? You could put it another way:

 

Posted Image

 

 

4) A No vote isn't simply accepting the status quo, it's about disagreeing with the current proposals being put forward as "the way forward", which, IMO, is a badly constructed, fact-lite but sound-bite heavy, proposal / document that poses more questions than it answers.

5) As someone who works in renewables, they primary issues has been then lcak of coherent thinking and planning on a UK level. Now I'm not sure if a shift in decision making powers will provide a benefit, but it's clear this "joined-up thinking" needs to be done on a basis larger than that of Scotland, especially for the offshore stuff.

6) Tax avoidance is just as prevalent up here as elsewhere, or do you think this is a London-only thing?

7) Scotland has it's own transport budget does it not? Geographically we are at a disadvantage (whether cross-border or internally), independance or not isn't going to change that. I'd worry that if funding gaps appear they would be more difficult to plug with a much smaller economy.

8) I haven't seen any evidence of external lobbying of other governments, please share.

9) Dubai is not a good comparison - it is an extremely low tax economy, built on the sweat of cheap imported labour, with massive inequality and an almost non-existant political system. Spread thei oil money out, democratically, and things would look very different. Check out the effects on Dubai and other petro-economies after the oil price crash of ~2008. It's no surprise they are turning it into a middle-eastern Disneyland for adults, as there's little else once the dino-juice drops off...



#578 LY_Scott

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:13 PM

Driving home. Will reply later Ross lol :D

#579 techieboy

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:21 PM

What we have now isn't working.

What's broken then? Or is it that you think it could be "more" working?

#580 techieboy

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 05:08 PM

Posted Image

Oooh, you negative bully you. Clearly a closet Tory Westminsterist. Quoting official Scottish Government figures like that. How very dare you. :D




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