2141 replies to this topic

[JohnTurbo]

The food bank think makes me laugh. This is unrelated to all this yes/no business. And only loosely related to the number of empoverished.

 

I suggest that:-

 

* Any amount of free food could find a home.

* If more food is available to food banks, the food banks will give away more food.

* (the clincher..) More food is available to food banks! - The supermarkets provide them with it as it approaches use-by.

http://www.mirror.co...support-1510709

 

Some charity types do a great job of arranging for food for the poor - and everyone assume this means there is more poor people - by a factor of like 20!!! Socio-economics don't change that fast!

 

 

 

[LY_Scott]

Well off the mark John. The truth about food banks.

[LY_Scott]

Plus the government trying to bury the issues they have caused http://m.bbc.co.uk/n...litics-27783331 Even from Ross's favourite news source.

[Rosssco]

Plus the government trying to bury the issues they have caused http://m.bbc.co.uk/n...litics-27783331 Even from Ross's favourite news source.

 

As I asked a few posts earlier - explain to me how the current UK government has directly or indirectly caused the increase in food banks, and how an independant Scottish government with more power (even though it already has the power to do something about it) would remedy the situation?

 

The government have rightly complained as its not eh job of a charity to make a somewhat political statement..

 

Its not my favorite news source, I only posted a link to the most recent poll results, which show them at a virtual standstill over the last year..

[Rosssco]

Well off the mark John. The truth about food banks.

 

The irony of you're BBC link

[LY_Scott]

 

Well off the mark John. The truth about food banks.

 

The irony of you're BBC link

 

 

Lost me there. No one in the video works for the BBC and it's isn't journalism it's a live feed?

[LY_Scott]

The fact that you are laughing would suggest you haven't watched it either.

 

As for what has the current government done the list at the top of the page is a good start eh? pretty much what I've gone over a million times already.

[Rosssco]

Ehhh... The bit that it says "BBC Democracy Live" - thought the BBC was just a unionist news service, don't you have an impartial one?

 

I can't watch it as I'm at work.

 

Please, enlighten me, as I obviously missed it. So lets try make this an intelligent conversation without the usual nat soundbites, slogans and wishfull thinking:

 

Zero hour contracts - Worse than no contract / unemployment? Maybe people should just stay on benefits until they get a full-time job?

 

Benefit cuts - Which country hasn't reduced or frozen social budgets? How would an iScotland tackle a huge financial deficient, spend more? Or borrow more because it couldn't print it's one curreny as part of a currency union?

 

High prices - Yep, the government has increased prices for lots of stuff, like, errr... can we just call it inflation instead?

 

Unemployment - Ah the Tory / Wesminster generated global recession, from which an iScotland would be impervous (what with its dependancy on oil, even though the oil price, and therefore tax take crashed from $150 to $40, or the financial sector whci could have in theory swalled Scotland whole about twice over..)

 

Childcare costs - not sure on that one.. I suppose the SNP have come up with a nifty plan on that one, given that it looks like a pre-school child done their maths for them..

 

Of course don't let a good emotive poster get in the way of the facts...

 

Apart from all this, the important part I want to know before considering voting yes, is what an iScotland would do in these scenarios?

 

 

[LY_Scott]

Its a recording of a live feed Ross. Its not the nightly headlines. Zero hour contracts. Let's tackle that. Tell me how not knowing what you are working day to day is any use to anyone? Everyone has bills and needs regular income. Can also sack you at the drop of a hat. Are you suggesting this should be they way we work in the 21st century? Is that what the labour movement fought for? I really don't mind Oxfam speaking up. Are you suggesting we should all be quiet about it? That seems to be what the government wants. If it is not from their policies why are they making a complaint based on the idea that it is?

[Zuber]

Rosssco,

 

I think you are being a bit hard on LY_Scott. I think I have identified where the differences of opinion stem from.

 

When the politicians from the Yes camp tell us that they can fix everything and it will all be wonderful, some people actually believe them It also explains why the SNP was so keen to get younger voters.

 

Many of us who are older (and wiser), know that when you are told prior to any sort of election (or referendum) about the amazing things that are going to be done afterwards, these  should be taken with a large pinch of salt. They are more like aspirations, dreams, wishfull thinking or just plain bullshit.

 

Afterwards, reality kicks back in but then it's too late...

 

That applies to both sides of course, but since the No camp are already having to work in the real world, they have to keep their feet on the ground.

Edited by Zuber, 12 June 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[LY_Scott]

Ffs. Really?

[Rosssco]

Its a recording of a live feed Ross. Its not the nightly headlines. Zero hour contracts. Let's tackle that. Tell me how not knowing what you are working day to day is any use to anyone? Everyone has bills and needs regular income. Can also sack you at the drop of a hat. Are you suggesting this should be they way we work in the 21st century? Is that what the labour movement fought for? I really don't mind Oxfam speaking up. Are you suggesting we should all be quiet about it? That seems to be what the government wants. If it is not from their policies why are they making a complaint based on the idea that it is?

 

I realise that Scott. Clearly gone over you're head (or ignored), anyway..

 

I don't disagree with you're assessment of zero-hour contracts that they are obviously less desirable than a full time job. No one is questioning that. I am asking what would you (or the YESNP) suggest we do about it?

 

What would Scotland or the labour movement do differently?

 

It doesn't bother me particularly much either, but charities should be impartial, espeically those who recieve funding from the government. If charities are not impartial, then they simply become politicised which detracts from their primary goal.  But so what, tell me why they are right what they said on the poster, and why Scotland would be different?

 

You really need to stop obfuscating about short term social issues and tell me why we will be better off independant in comparision to what we have now?

 

The traditional Nat technique is to blame all social problems on the incumbent government (its worked out well for them that Tories are currently in), without actually providing legitimate answers..

[LY_Scott]

Scotland majority votes left of centre Ross. The Tories aren't a fit for Scotland. Political differences seems a pretty normal reason to want to go in a different direction when we have a chance. There's impartially and there's ignoring the issues. Oxfam have said its not party political. The Tories doth protest too much.

[Mangham54]

Listening to that highlights a major issue, but ultimately not one that could be solved by a change of priorities within the current political framework in Scotland.

 

Education is important, but are free University places more important than ensuring that the populus receive the food they need... In my opinion no. Yes benefits cuts have been challenging and have exacerbated this issue, but ultimately the current political party and political framework could resolve at least some of the problems that already exist in Scotland.

[Rosssco]

Scotland majority votes left of centre Ross. The Tories aren't a fit for Scotland. Political differences seems a pretty normal reason to want to go in a different direction when we have a chance. There's impartially and there's ignoring the issues. Oxfam have said its not party political. The Tories doth protest too much.

 

Nat technique #32 - Avoid answering questions for which we have no response. Provide deflectionary statement on percieved social attitudes.

 

Scotland does vote left center, you're right. But only slightly. Scotland is not the left-wing, yearning for more socialism, place its often claimed to be.. This is the point where you trot out the good ole' "more pandas than Tory MP's in Scotland.."

 

The Tories are not the permanent rulers of Scotland! And we have a significant amount of power already in Scotland. We are in a political union for the benefits it provides to a bunch of people who are broadly similar in outlook. This may mean that we do not get the exact government we vote for everytime, but that's called democracy...

[LY_Scott]

Ross in the past 100 years Scotland has influenced the Westminster election only twice. We never get the government we vote for. We can start by not completey ignoring the issues or hushing up those that raise them. How about that?

[Rosssco]

Listening to that highlights a major issue, but ultimately not one that could be solved by a change of priorities within the current political framework in Scotland.

 

Education is important, but are free University places more important than ensuring that the populus receive the food they need... In my opinion no. Yes benefits cuts have been challenging and have exacerbated this issue, but ultimately the current political party and political framework could resolve at least some of the problems that already exist in Scotland.

 

Of course, there are significant problems in this country, either in Scotland or in the UK more generally (pretty much the same problems).

 

The SNP solution - claim these are not Scotlands own problems, and that we are powerless to do anything about it, and that if we only had more political power in Edinburgh, we could (ultimately) pump more money into solve things.  

 

Its like going to the doctors with a couple of broken toes and being told they'll have to amputate from the knee down - wrong diagnosis and solution.

[G-Bob]

The zero hour contract is a hard one because you are working, potentially earning nothing or not a lot and then can't claim benefits either. There should be a way to declare what you have worked (online, telephone or in person) and if required you could receive a top-up from the benefits system. At this precise moment it is in the best interests for people not to take a job that pays less than average wage. Its not the amount of money they get paid, more the amount they lose in housing, council tax discounts etc. There needs to be some sort of sliding scale where you still get partial benefits to make you better off. Government pays less benefits but also gets an element of taxes from income and associated spending.

[Rosssco]

Ross in the past 100 years Scotland has influenced the Westminster election only twice. We never get the government we vote for. We can start by not completey ignoring the issues or hushing up those that raise them. How about that?

 

Huh? How many labour governments have been in charge since then? I presume we voted for some of them? I also presume that the disproportionate number of Scottish MP's and party leaders has in no way benefitted us..

 

How many governments have the people of Aberdeen, Inverness or Shetland influenced in the last 100 years? They have different views, why don't they always get what they vote for..?

 

Its called a political union, which means, yes you have to make some sacrifices.. Bit like the EU that the SNP are so desparate to snuggle up to..

 

What issues have been hushed up? The issues on the Oxfam poster are discussed virtually every week in the news and national media. I've never heard of any of these issues being hushed up.. Is this the Westminster conspiracy pact swinging into action again..?

 

See you're not really arguing for indepenance, you're just left-leaning and anti-tory. And while there's nothing wrong with that view point, you should try to stop conflating that issue (as most other nationalists do to be fair) with the issue of a supposed democratic deficiet..

[KurtVerbose]

The zero hour contract is a hard one because you are working, potentially earning nothing or not a lot and then can't claim benefits either.

 

But what has it to do with Scotland Independence, given that the Scottish Parliament has the power to change it now?