2141 replies to this topic

[theotherjonnymac]

I do believe that Scotland should be able to choose. I think Alex Salmond has a hidden agenda but that is just my opinion. Scotland is a fab place. We had a place in Cromarty many years ago. But I struggle to see how the maths work given the scarcity of population, particularly in the Highlands where no one lives but there are still essential services that need to be offered.

[ghand]

I know I would be £30 k in pocket if I had lived in Scotland (kids uni) Could they still offer perks like that if they split Oh and do they get free drugs ?

[jonnyboy]

Could they buggery. Its a very bad time to be a small independent country. I think its a real shame all this talk of independence. We should be looking for more cohesion and closeness rather than more devaluation or independence. Surely being together as three nations has to be better than having two or three separate countries especially when we are kind of not properly in Europe and look to be even more isolated. I see Scotland and Scots people the same as I see Londoners or the Welsh. We all have a gregs on the high street, we are all the same in the grand scheme of Europe and the world. I think the emotive argument for Scottish independence will soon begin to look pretty stale when the finances are unraveled. Having properly centralised Armed forces, Revenue, Customs Healthcare and benefits systems will result is huge tax increases and a dawn of realisation for many. Oh and best of luck launching a currency!

[LY_Scott]

http://www.guardian....ion?INTCMP=SRCH

Scottish Independence fast becoming the only option

Those among my friends who have lost their religious faith have described it as a desolate process. Rather than experiencing a rush of euphoria at liberation from a restrictive credo, they speak of their sadness as, one by one, the illuminations on their once cherished pillars are extinguished. It may be approaching apostasy to equate separation from the divine with the dawning of scepticism about the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Yet when it becomes increasingly more difficult to find good reasons why Scotland should remain in the union you begin to wonder if your crisis of faith is curable or terminal.

The champions of the union these days have curiously little to say that is positive about their cherished political nirvana beyond the Queen, some shared former glories and a nebulous "stability". When their anti-nationalist invective outweighs their pro-union adulation, you realise that they are not convinced either. Indeed, it seems now that the loudest supporters of the union are UK ministerial salarymen such as Douglas Alexander and Jim Murphy or old Scottish Labour stalwarts such as Michael Kelly and Brian Wilson.

Alexander and Murphy would suffer most in the anti-Scottish backlash following independence while the other two have such an implacable hatred of Scottish nationalism that it might lead you reasonably to conclude that they would sooner accept the Taliban than the SNP. Indeed, the good Dr Kelly in his entertaining columns for the Scotsman states that the result of the referendum is already in the bag and thus the campaign is "boring". Even now, nationalist strategists ought to be trying out Kelly's words in an 84pt sans serif face across six columns in their campaign leaflets.

Last year, over coffee in Glasgow, I was discussing the strategy of the Better Together camp with a prominent Labour politician. I suggested to him that Labour's problem in Scotland is that they had to develop a narrative that says good things about the union rather than simply parrot the predictable and scientifically questionable surveys of purple-faced and gin-soaked CBI types that claim we'll be a developing country if we become independent.

One year later and, despite Douglas Alexander's best efforts, Labour has still failed to sell the union on its own merits. Events since then may even have rendered the task impossible. Unionists, me included, have talked loftily about dangers of break-up and separation in a world that is thirsting for continuity and stability.

Yet we conveniently overlook the fact that London has already broken away from the United Kingdom and now exists as a world super-state governed by the greed of unhindered capitalism and recognisable as British only by its taxis and bad service. As the world's most newly minted oligarchs continue to colonise the independent state of London, it becomes almost impossible for families on less than £250k to live decently there. Poor London families made homeless by the coalition benefit cuts are being evacuated as far north as Middlesbrough.

Last week, Goldman Sachs, one of the banks with its fingers in the till when global economic meltdown occurred, awarded an average bonus of £250,000 to each of its employees. The gap between the richest in our society and the poorest stretched a little more and we were reminded yet again that the UK government, despite its promises, allows greed, incompetence and corruption to be rewarded. (How many people do you think will go to jail for the Libor rate-fixing scandal?) Meanwhile, Westminster politicians are dividing the poor into categories marked "deserving" and "scum".

The most common wet dream of every Bullingdon Tory is the national lottery. And what a jolly wheeze it is: get the poor to fund our biggest capital projects in exchange for a cruel fairy story. Now they've doubled the stake to £2, confident that the benefit cuts are increasing their customer base daily. In Glasgow, the boss of a council-run regeneration agency was given a £500k pay-off at a time when the Citizens Advice Bureau is reporting almost 1,000 calls a day from people whose families have been impoverished by the benefit cuts. Life for millions of people under the most rapacious and reactionary government in 150 years has diminished. To prevent the peasants revolting, however, they have been treated to exaggerated displays of unity euphoria such as the Olympics and assorted royal jubilees.

Labour in the UK long ago gave up any pretence at being the party of the marginalised and the vulnerable. Instead, it throws rotten fruit at the SNP when it says what Labour should be saying. Alex Salmond last week painted a handsome picture of what a new Scottish constitution following independence would look like. Every Scot, he said, would have a right to a home and free education. There will be no nuclear weapons. And we'll decide who we're fighting and who we're not. Until Blair, Mandelson, Balls and Miliband hijacked the party, that was what I thought Labour stood for. Now they simply boo and hiss with the Tories and say it can't be done.

Earlier this month, the UK Treasury declared that, following a period of intense and prolonged analysis of the economic numbers, each of us would be £1 a year worse off in an independent Scotland. Put another way, for £1 a year you will never have to endure the economic privations of a Conservative government ever again. You will not be penalised for being poor or old and nor will you suffer the pain of watching your young boys being killed in illegal wars or occupations.

We won't be lacking friends, either. Of matters concerning oil and Europe in an independent Scotland, the Norwegian government officials I met in Oslo last month were very upbeat. "Come and talk to us before you commit to the EU," they said, "and let us advise you how to manage your oil fund and how to negotiate with the oil companies."

With each passing week, it becomes more difficult to support a union that doesn't really exist anyway. Morally, it may soon become indefensible to remain in a state that rewards corruption and promotes inequality when you have an opportunity to leave it behind.

I think this debate is becoming more interesting now theres a debate on leaving the EU for the UK. The language and lack of a campaign to keep the union are very similar.

Edited by LY_Scott, 21 January 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[techieboy]

When you go, can you can take the Gurniad with you.

[LY_Scott]

No thanks, not even sure I want "The Scotsman"

[techieboy]

[Mangham54]

The hard parts for me to consider on this debate, are thus: 1. Would all UK funded infrastructure be gifted to the Scottish goverment (water, gas etc), or would it be sold to them? 2. How does a new currency be created and will the government hold the reserves to finance it? 3. Does the impact of non-automatic European membership effect the arguement for going it alone? 4. How would students in Scotland finance University study in England or Wales? If there is no loan system in place for internal students, then having a system in place for those wanting to Oxford, Cambridge, Bath, Bristol, Newcastle or Durham (etc) is going to be guesswork and potentially expensive and wasteful. 5. How will drivers licences work in Scotland, would the system allow Scottish drivers to drive in the UK (and vice-versa), how would insurance policies work - would you have to take out an international / european top-up to cross the border? These are mere questions I cannot get my head around at this time, and I am sure there are lots more, eg. Legal setups / Scottish NHS etc etc.

[Mangham54]

Would the Scottish government have to create a new variant of the DVLA, will all driving licenses have to be replaced, V5 documents etc. The other twat will be replacing all books in Schools, Colleges etc which refer to the old currency... I know the cost of imperial to metric changes previously crippled some school budgets and would be the same if the UK had defected to the Euro.

[LY_Scott]

The hard parts for me to consider on this debate, are thus:

1. Would all UK funded infrastructure be gifted to the Scottish goverment (water, gas etc), or would it be sold to them? To sell these things you must assume that they are not owned or even part owned by Scotland already? Were they some how a gift to us? Because no one in Scotland pays any tax or utility bills obviously....Did a band of English and Welsh come up one week and install it for us and now kindly run it at a massive loss ffs? Water system here is run by Scottish Water and local authorities. Gas is Transco but I don't understand the point being made here?

2. How does a new currency be created and will the government hold the reserves to finance it?
See above. The SNP have plans to keep running the pound however theres a lot of debate about this.

3. Does the impact of non-automatic European membership effect the arguement for going it alone?
It's part of the debate with no clear answer either. Its an interesting point when you look at the whole of the current UK debating whether to be on it at all.

4. How would students in Scotland finance University study in England or Wales? If there is no loan system in place for internal students, then having a system in place for those wanting to Oxford, Cambridge, Bath, Bristol, Newcastle or Durham (etc) is going to be guesswork and potentially expensive and wasteful.
No idea and don't really understand the question or why this changes with independence? but there are currently ways to access funding as a Scottish student to study elsewhere AFIK

5. How will drivers licences work in Scotland, would the system allow Scottish drivers to drive in the UK (and vice-versa), how would insurance policies work - would you have to take out an international / european top-up to cross the border?
Pass. I'd imagine that its something that would work itself out over time and probably between the referendum in 2014 and actual independence in 2016. A mix of what people were willing to pay, what gave coverage required etc. Probably worth looking to NI/ROI to see what the setup is there. I don't think there'll be anything stopping Scottish drivers driving into England or vice versa, that would be fairly silly.


These are mere questions I cannot get my head around at this time, and I am sure there are lots more, eg. Legal setups / Scottish NHS etc
Health is already devovled and been run a seperate system even before devolution
The legal system in Scotland (Scots Law) is seperate from the rest of the UK and always has been. It was kept seperate in the Act Of Union in 1707 as was Education and the Church Of Scotland.

[Mangham54]

Re point 1. Doh comes to mind... Had a momentary lapse of judgement, as I know the utilities are now private enterprise. As for the health and legal system I didn't know that, so that eases those questions.

[Mangham54]

4. With a move to full independance I would think that the EWI government would pull the Student Loans Company back out of Scotland, creating a loss of jobs. Plus I thought the loans offered to Scottish students was still provided by the SLC, but due to the shared taxation systems, the reclaiming of payments exists, whereas that would.possibly be removed with independance.

[LY_Scott]

4. With a move to full independance I would think that the EWI government would pull the Student Loans Company back out of Scotland, creating a loss of jobs. Plus I thought the loans offered to Scottish students was still provided by the SLC, but due to the shared taxation systems, the reclaiming of payments exists, whereas that would.possibly be removed with independance.

I honestly have no idea on this one Chris but it interests me so I'll look into it.

Salmond in the above article has promised the right to a free education so it would seem tuition fees will remain free but I'm not sure how the loans system will be working.

[slindborg]

4. With a move to full independance I would think that the EWI government would pull the Student Loans Company back out of Scotland, creating a loss of jobs. Plus I thought the loans offered to Scottish students was still provided by the SLC, but due to the shared taxation systems, the reclaiming of payments exists, whereas that would.possibly be removed with independance.

Based on my experience and the wifes experience, there is about 10 people working at the SLC no great loss there.

[LY_Scott]

Tis true. I have arm's length involvement with SLC call centre in Glasgow so I know that outwith the start of new term where they staff up massivly with temps (probably students) they reduce this to virtually nothing rest of the year.

[G-Bob]

My Dad used to work for them. He hated it.

[Mangham54]

The problem for Scotland, would be if the EWI government decides to throw their teddy out of the cott and withdraw any business they have in Scotland. Whether any of the private businesses do the same would have to be seen... again if the government want to draw them out, could offer investment / tax break incentives. Not that I would any of that, but given the bitterness that seems to be brewing, there is always a chance.

[jonnyboy]

The whole independence thing falls apart when the Scots don't get use of our armed forces. To be truly independent sure it's doable but free education prescriptions and all that best of luck. And assumptions are being made about oil revenue too. Who says we want to give that up? The whole thing is ludicrous anyway has devolution done Wales any favors? When you look at a country the size of the USA the idea that Edinburgh is to far from London is silly. I say that as a Northerner, we don't feel close to London at all it's like another bloody planet but the system has worked well to now. All this pandering to ethnic and sectarian politicians just creates even more bureaucracy. There is somehow Ann assumption also that Scotland will be part of the EU which it won't. Who will want Scottish products and services with 20% import duty added? I would like to see Wales and Scotland scrap all devolution and just come back to being part of the UK. We need to stick together as small countries not rip ourselves apart.

Edited by jonnyboy, 21 January 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[Seb.F]

I don't think that financially it will do Scotland any good, but if they want to give it a go, be my guest.

[Baron Von Scubadaddy]

Speaking as a Racist I feel scotland should not only become FULLY INDEPENDENT of the Motherland (Thats England) but should also have it's on bloody time zone too So I down south like don't loose my day light because some farmer in another country has to get up to shag his sheep !!!! can anyone smell gas .........