2141 replies to this topic

[LY_Scott]

The whole independence thing falls apart when the Scots don't get use of our armed forces
Why wouldn't we? There are Scots fighting in the armed forces, (quite a proportion). Scots bases (Some rather large ones) and by scrapping all the individual regiments a few years ago in Scotland the UK government already created the Scottish army. The Royal Regiment of Scotland.

And assumptions are being made about oil revenue too. Who says we want to give that up?
Oh now its worth something?

There is somehow Ann assumption also that Scotland will be part of the EU which it won't. Who will want Scottish products and services with 20% import duty added? This is a made up figure and the EU debate is not conclusive. Apart from that the assumption that everyone will stop consuming Scottish produce suddenly is just silly..just ask ghand.

[techieboy]

It'll be no more Aberdeen Angus for me and that most certainly will hurt the fledgling Scottish economy.

[G-Bob]

It'll be no more Aberdeen Angus for me and that most certainly will hurt the fledgling Scottish economy.

If Ghand stops drinking whisky the pair of you could sink us overnight!

[jonnyboy]

The EU situation as I understand is pretty clear they would not be in the EU and would have to apply for membership. As for the forces yes plenty of squaddies but how on earth would you deploy them without the backup of the "motherland" and the logistical backup? Crikey we are teaming up with France because it's a stretch for England so there are huge investments needed in all sorts of infrastructure for true independence. Independence should mean just that and I suspect that what Scots are looking for is not just devolution max but some kind of quasi independence where they get all the benefits but we still protect them from the Chinese/vikings invading. Devolution max is the must likely outcome but I would prefer to see that option scrapped and the Scottish people make a proper decision. Also Scotland would need to take with it her share of the deficit so you have a broke country with no army that can't sustain itself. Just like the whole uk now then!

[Baron Von Scubadaddy]

I'm moving to Germany I'm sure they have got it sorted by now fcuk it if not Brazil !!!!

[LazyDonkey]

The guardian article is interesting. Pompous but interesting. Financial and job concerns aside (my company is based in London) the bit i struggle with is the belief that Salmond et al will be any better or any less corrupt and greedy than their London based colleagues. We already have the electoral system to support, in theory at least, candidates without political affiliation but very few seem to appear. It's the same old party politics but just with different faces. Yes we have more parties represented but where are the interesting independents Where are the people who aren't life long politicians but jsut want to make a huge difference? Scottish independence won't change the fact that my council (Glasgow) are corrupt and incompetent Won't change the fact we still have a chauffeur fleet when they are cutting funding to schools. Won't change the fact that my council tax is mis-used and squandered. Ultimately what i'd like is a level headed debate without cries of freedom and images of an australian with blue paint on his face. As and when the yes campaign start talking unemotively about politics and the money i'll listen. The debate around Faslane is typical of the concerns i have where sweeping statements "no more nuclear" are made without the thought and consideration on what happens to the area (where my family are from) when their biggest employer leaves. We need facts and figures to take the debate forward but the next yes campaigner who tells me i should do it cos i should be proud to be Scottish will get a punch in the face. Emotion has no place in politics. I am proud of my roots but someone needs to give me the facts and figures for me to say yes. Also can i really vote for anything that makes Sturgeon even more important? She has a face i'd never tire of punching.

Edited by LazyDonkey, 22 January 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[Goosenka]

Wasn't a huge amount of the Royal Navy moved from Portsmouth to Scotland?

[Craig S]

I have to agree with Jonny what the SNP are attempting is some sort of pseudo independence for example if they truly want independence then the pound must go as having a currency you have no control of is madness. As for the in or out of the EU, then having to rejoin is actually better as you get to negotiate into the EU and get exemptions, so maybe Scotland could get some of the exemptions back that Mr Blair gave away.

[peteslag]

I used to live in Scotland, I spent 10 happy years up there. The wife is Scottish so we frequently visit family/friends up there. What surprises me is the amount of Scottish people I speak to that don't want this to happen anymore. When the idea first came up it seemed everyone was pro independent but now it potentially could be a reality a lot of people are less enthusiastic about it.

I think that when the idea was first born it sounded great to the average Scottish person. This thread has put forward some very interesting ideas and has also highlighted the fact that the potential infrastructure changes are massive. I wonder if anyone in Scotland, hand on heart, actually still wants this (except Salmond of course).

Edited by peteslag, 22 January 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[jonnyboy]

Currency is another issue. They could peg to uk rates but a new currency is bound to hyperinflate the economy it would be a right old mess until the markets settled.

[LY_Scott]

I think we can all agree that Nicola Sturgeon is an undesirable human being. However the yes or no choice will out live her and alex so try to breathe in before you do anything purely to spite them.

Can we stop bringing up fcuking braveheart as an argument? Jesus wept. When Alex Salmond is pushing the renewables industry line or promising a right to a home and a free education. What the shite is that to do with Mel Gibson? Its an easy pop shot at the independence campaign that is heard time and time again but I challenge you to show anyone involved saying their life changed when they saw the film and that any of it is about that. Fk me. If that bloody film was never made like it wasn't when the SNP were formed or when the first referendum on devolution in the 70's was or when it started to appear again in Labour manifesto's in 1992 we'd still be here. It's just side chatter and doesn't help anyone.

The campaigns kick off in November this year properly after the Referendum bill gains Royal ascent.

Some points brought up in the comments are covered in the BBC's summary page here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-18364699

and if anyone's interested they also have a Scotland's Future page here with some more in depth analysis
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/16630456

[techieboy]

I'm changing your username to LY_Salmond

[Zoobeef]

Wasn't a huge amount of the Royal navy moved from Portsmouth to Scotland?

Shhhh


I'm in the party of I wonder how long free university fees will last, give it a few years of independance.

But I'm all for moving troops back from Germany to guard the wall

[Craig S]

I'm changing your username to LY_Salmond

Worth a read if you need a chuckle http://uncyclopedia....ki/Alex_Salmond

[techieboy]

I'm changing your username to LY_Salmond

Worth a read if you need a chuckle http://uncyclopedia....ki/Alex_Salmond

[Rosssco]

The guardian article is interesting. Pompous but interesting.

Financial and job concerns aside (my company is based in London) the bit i struggle with is the belief that Salmond et al will be any better or any less corrupt and greedy than their London based colleagues.

We already have the electoral system to support, in theory at least, candidates without political affiliation but very few seem to appear. It's the same old party politics but just with different faces. Yes we have more parties represented but where are the interesting independents Where are the people who aren't life long politicians but jsut want to make a huge difference?

Scottish independence won't change the fact that my council (Glasgow) are corrupt and incompetent Won't change the fact we still have a chauffeur fleet when they are cutting funding to schools. Won't change the fact that my council tax is mis-used and squandered.

Ultimately what i'd like is a level headed debate without cries of freedom and images of an australian with blue paint on his face. As and when the yes campaign start talking unemotively about politics and the money i'll listen. The debate around Faslane is typical of the concerns i have where sweeping statements "no more nuclear" are made without the thought and consideration on what happens to the area (where my family are from) when their biggest employer leaves.

We need facts and figures to take the debate forward but the next yes campaigner who tells me i should do it cos i should be proud to be Scottish will get a punch in the face. Emotion has no place in politics. I am proud of my roots but someone needs to give me the facts and figures for me to say yes.

Also can i really vote for anything that makes Sturgeon even more important? She has a face i'd never tire of punching.

Good post Donkey. For me it is, and always will be a resolute 'no' in the independance debate, and would only change if I ever heard some realistic, quantifiable benefits to independance that out weigh the work involved in achieving it. So far, most SNP commentary is based on speculation and citation of other small countries in different (in a number of key areas) circumstances. I'd happily pay £1 for them to focus their energies on managing their own respective governmental responsibilites than try a grab for more power.

Short of a military dictatorship (Colonel Salmond.?), I can't envision there really being many significant changes for the better in the short / medium term. Perhaps in longer terms, but again the mindset and in-experience of the current Scottish government does not persuade me that they will be any less short-term-minded than they currently are.

The SNP know they probably won't win the Yes vote (and I'm not sure they'd really want it at this stage), but they do know it's a great opportunity to grab yet more powers for the Scottish Gov. Sort of independance through attrition.

[G-Bob]

If I was looking at this as a business case, then I can't see the benefit outweighing the amount of effort required for change. This is not like a system upgrade where we need to upgrade in order to remain supported. I see it that all arguments are showing us that we won't be worse off, but where are the arguments telling us what will be better?

[LazyDonkey]

I think we can all agree that Nicola Sturgeon is an undesirable human being. However the yes or no choice will out live her and alex so try to breathe in before you do anything purely to spite them.

Can we stop bringing up fcuking braveheart as an argument? Jesus wept. When Alex Salmond is pushing the renewables industry line or promising a right to a home and a free education. What the shite is that to do with Mel Gibson? Its an easy pop shot at the independence campaign that is heard time and time again but I challenge you to show anyone involved saying their life changed when they saw the film and that any of it is about that. Fk me. If that bloody film was never made like it wasn't when the SNP were formed or when the first referendum on devolution in the 70's was or when it started to appear again in Labour manifesto's in 1992 we'd still be here. It's just side chatter and doesn't help anyone.

Smilies usually mean someone is taking the p*ss Scott - despite how repulsive i find her (and she's my MP so i think i'm allowed to find her VERY repulsive) i wouldn't ever let it influence my vote on the yes campaign, although it does and has influenced my vote locally.

The braveheart line was said tongue in cheek, but I'll hand you a crisp £10 if the first yes campaign TV advert doesn't have sweeping helicopter views of Scotland and an emotive voice over talking about being proud to be Scottish On the last election i walked past an SNP person who gave me leaflet and when i refused to take it they said "are you not proud to be Scottish?" Now that's one person, but i find that sort of sentiment to be prevalent in the whole SNP campaign.......why would you WANT to be ruled by England when we're Scottish Surely you WANT to control things and not be controlled by England. Surely you want to have a say in my own destiny? etc etc My father in law is a very well read man and a proud supporter of the yes campaign but even he eventually resorts to the pride argument.

My answer is always the same. I do have control of my own destiny, i'm a voter and i can make my voice heard. In my current constituency my vote is worth the square root of fcuk all as it's not an SNP vote and even using PR i'm very much in the minority. What is to say that an independent Scotland will change that?

The SNP had an election promise of reduced class sizes by 2011 and have so far failed to deliver on that promise. The universities geared up and started training more teachers and when they left they found no jobs. Yes they can blame the councils and everyone else but the fundamentals are stark - mrs donkey has a class of 32 8 years olds, 5 with special needs and gets 5 hours a week support. She will probably leave teaching in a couple of years, never to return as it's just not worth the hassle and the stress. The current system is failing our teachers and failing our kids.

The yes campaign is all about controlling our own destiny and not letting us be run by the corrupt and morally questionable UK government but my point above (which you've not addressed) is who says our politicians would be better? Education is a devolved power and still the promises haven't been kept. When challenged on the issue oor Alex does everything but deal with the issue.

For the avoidance of doubt i'm not pro "yes" or pro "no" i'm undecided - but until someone can address my concerns then i'll struggle to vote yes.

Note : The above is meant to be said with good humour and be taken in that way, not wishing to disrespect anyone's beliefs or views, just trying to highlight my problems with the campaign you support. If we could stop talking about burds and plastic cars on the next meet i'd be just as happy chatting about it over a pint

Edited by LazyDonkey, 22 January 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[G-Bob]

If we could stop talking about burds and plastic cars on the next meet i'd be just as happy chatting about it over a pint

Noooooooo... Don't you dare.

[LazyDonkey]

I was just trying to point out i'm not a keyboard warrior - clearly anyone talking about politics on a night out deserves a slap