
Scotland Independence
#1761
Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:48 PM
#1762
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:00 PM
Seb, other countries saying we should stick together isn't for our benefit its usually for theirs. Self determination is the key Seb. Control of all of our resources, wealth and a move to the natural left. Ross isn't a leftie and I'm not a Sheridan grade socialist either and we can vote how far we go but then that's up to us.
I think that's putting slightly too much emphasis on the 'worth' of Scotland but I understand what you are saying, however I completely disagree.
The world should be about sharing and caring and not about hoarding natural resources, which is I all seem to hear out of Salmond.
#1763
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:03 PM
#1764
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:04 PM
fair reasons, we want the same for all of UK
This...
While I'm a bit of a commie/capitalist (although poor), I think everyone should pitch in, everyone should prosper and stuff should be fair. Its not too much to ask but none of the politics lot ever seem to be able or interested in doing that. And I bet the SNP run into the same problems that while they can promise to have a go at doing XYZ, the reality is that they can do a bit of X, some of Y and Z can FRO
#1765
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:05 PM
#1766
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:09 PM
The problem with Scott's ascertains (or, perhaps assumptions), is that shifting of power from Westminster to Holyrood will provide a great opportunity to solve issues that a national, global and are ingrained into our society, and are in part a result of our own desire become better off. That isn't going to change by creating a border I'm afraid.
We live in a very global world where, I believe, we have to be as switched on and aware of our influence and position within that world, and what other countries expect of us. There's no such thing as the nation state anymore, its just an inter-connected web of political affiliations, trade agreements, defence agreements, and the selection of how much soverignty you want to surrender, knowing that if you don't, you will be regarded as a back-wards looking state.
On its own, independance provides nothing, it only offers the chance to alter local policy and resources to a slightly greater degree than under the current settlement. There's absolutely nothing to suggest we will even move 'to the Left' as Scott puts it in any substantional form, in fact, I predict a resurgent Conservative party (or a re-branded version of), as there will be a demand for a right-wing alternative, just like every other country in the world.
Read an interesting article about the Yes campaign, which highlighted its made up of a number of disparate and contradicatory groups, all with competing ideologies who will all want a piece of the new cake. How can the Green party agree with sucking as much oil out of the NS, or the Left sqaure with the pro-business lobby who want to increase out competitiveness..? Same squabbles, smaller arena..
This isn't really about democracy - we will still vote on the same Scottish parliement, with the same dividing lines, the same promises of change and political manifesto's that rarely come true, just that they will have more power.
People will probably stay politically energised for a while, until they realise they really have no more control over political direction that they had before.. They will not be prepared for the hard choices that a future Scottish government will have to make, as all do, but the current SNP leadership hasn't because they can currently point and blame lack of funding and control to others.
We will still be heavily reliant on the rUK and what political tack it takes due to trade and avoidance of coming into direct competition, and under current plans we will have our budgets essentially decided for us by foreigners (if the currency union actually happens). Not even Eurozone members have to endure that.
#1767
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:09 PM
#1768
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:11 PM
Sounds like there's a desire for a move to the left in England too. You'll need to find a party who wish to go left and not get caught up in imperial willy waving or selling everything that's not tied down. It is coming.
there is no valid option though....
#1769
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:11 PM
It's not about hoarding, but when people say you are going to be poor, then you have to point out what assets you have to make your quality of life (as a country) better.
I always remember a quote from way back in the start saying (something like) no country that has ever gone independent has been told that it would be a good idea and would be told they would fail, The majority have done well.
#1770
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:11 PM
#1771
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:13 PM
Do you see the current government as one that cares and shares? I'd be absolutely astonished if you did.
I would challenge you to find anyone in any country that really thinks their government cares about them?
Governments are there fundamentally to organise of good defence to protect the countries inhabitants, take in a distribute resources, and pay attention to the wants / needs of the population.
They are not a benevolent society with our wishes as their priority..
#1772
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:13 PM
I harbour a vehement hate for UKIP.
#1773
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:17 PM
I always remember a quote from way back in the start saying (something like) no country that has ever gone independent has been told that it would be a good idea and would be told they would fail, The majority have done well.
Its a good quote Bob, but context is everything.
I'd bet none of these countries was a sucessful, safe, fully democratic country with a long histroy of cooperation - they were oppressed in some way, colonial, or previously part of a much larger homogenous state which didn't represent them.
I know a harded Nat would claim that's Scotland, but it clearly isn't..
#1774
Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:18 PM
Yep which is why people vote for UKIP. I hear that.
which goes to show that large swathes of a voting population are fuckwits....
#1775
Posted 16 September 2014 - 04:20 PM
#1776
Posted 16 September 2014 - 04:22 PM
#1777
Posted 16 September 2014 - 04:27 PM
Really, its free access for me...
As I mentioned a few posts back, they are backing No (or they make the case for the Union, which is slightly ironic given their previous analysis on wealth is so often used as Yes campaign weapon..)
#1778
Posted 16 September 2014 - 05:23 PM
#1780
Posted 16 September 2014 - 05:53 PM
The Yes voters seem do damn confident in the utopia of Yescotland and, with their despising off all things Westminster, I am beginning to hope they win. Just to see the sh*t hit the fan.
On a side note - does anyone else find Alison Stugeon's smug manner really, really irritating? I could slap her with a wet Salmon....
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