146 replies to this topic

[Gedi]

I used to have an STI type-r with water spray. I'm not sure if it ever helped lower the intake temps or whether it was just installed because the rally car had one (the type-a even had a silly wind scoop in the roof to cool the driver...)

 

However the setup is very different to that of the VX. The intercooler was mounted horizontally on top of the engine, it was therefore much more susceptible to heat soak from the engine. Also, because it was horizontal, the water could sit on the intercooler until it evaporated (or managed to escape through the fins). The VX has none of these charactoristics so I'm not sure how useful the water spray will be.

[siztenboots]

some data from yesterday , charge cooled , high flow manifold   rpm , boost , mass air flow , IAT , Ignition timing run 1 , 3rd gear 2,156 -7.7 28.75 27 25.5 2,156 5.9 91.25 27 5 3,355 8.6 132.75 27 4.5 3,990 9.2 164.5 29 3.5 5,012 8.9 192.25 29 5 5,578 4.5 196.25 32 6.5 6,201 2.7 196.25 32 17 6,776 1.4 201.5 32 21.5 run 2 , 2nd gear 2,823 -12.9 10.25 25 39.5 2,774 -12.2 14.5 25 39.5 2,766 2.6 98.75 25 18.5 5,194 10.8 185.25 25 5 6,369 3.7 197.5 25 10.5 7,475 1.3 209.25 27 20 7,245 -14.7 0 27 22.5

[mbes2]

some data from yesterday , charge cooled , high flow manifold   rpm , boost , mass air flow , IAT , Ignition timing 2,156 -7.7 28.75 27 25.5 2,156 5.9 91.25 27 5 3,355 8.6 132.75 27 4.5 3,990 9.2 164.5 29 3.5 5,012 8.9 192.25 29 5 5,578 4.5 196.25 32 6.5 6,201 2.7 196.25 32 17 6,776 1.4 201.5 32 21.5

 

Cool Steve, 

 

Was this on track ? 

 

Do you have the full output of the day 

[siztenboots]

this was on public roads , it doesn't take a genius to know that in 3rd gear what 6776rpm = big problem , so you have to be very covert. it also confirms that I have maxed out the 80mm MAF housing already at low boost <10psi and the manifold is working very well.

[mbes2]

Im going to try to capture more data at the national in July..

 

 

[NDT]

Where does the intercooler vent to - is it just into the engine bay without any kind of duct?

[mbes2]

Where does the intercooler vent to - is it just into the engine bay without any kind of duct?

Funny you asking that.... Been buying bits, to do any upgrade mod this weekend which will answer your question...

[NDT]

 

Where does the intercooler vent to - is it just into the engine bay without any kind of duct?

Funny you asking that.... Been buying bits, to do any upgrade mod this weekend which will answer your question...

 

 

Great - really interested in the results as I'd probably do the same mod.

Plus water spray....

Plus bigger scoop....

[mbes2]

[Nev]

Is that really true - the so called 80mm MAF (Astra VXR) one flat lines it's 5 volt signal from approx. 5000 RPM ?

 

I have a feeling that on WOT and in high revs the ECU adopts some sort of open loop system that ignores the MAF - it's just a feeling I got from talking to various tuners, so may be wrong.

[Bumblebee]

Is that really true - the so called 80mm MAF (Astra VXR) one flat lines it's 5 volt signal from approx. 5000 RPM ? I have a feeling that on WOT and in high revs the ECU adopts some sort of open loop system that ignores the MAF - it's just a feeling I got from talking to various tuners, so may be wrong.

What does this mean in simple terms nev?

[Nev]

 

Is that really true - the so called 80mm MAF (Astra VXR) one flat lines it's 5 volt signal from approx. 5000 RPM ? I have a feeling that on WOT and in high revs the ECU adopts some sort of open loop system that ignores the MAF - it's just a feeling I got from talking to various tuners, so may be wrong.

What does this mean in simple terms nev?

 

 

LOL, send me a pic of you in your bikini and I'll let you know

 

Joking aside, if what Steve has gleaned and I have interpreted is correct, it means that for a Stage 4 car the Astra VXR MAF (80mm ) cannot accurately measure the air going into the engine from approx. 5000 RPM, which might mean a bit of a AFR bodge/assumtion from that point on. However, if my "feeling" above is correct then it would not be an issue.

 

I am fairly certain that Liam would be the best person in the UK to answer this question with certainty. Maybe you could ask him next time you talk to Liam, as I know he understandably won't post on this forum any more due to some of the idiotic/negative/nasty/incorrect things a few people have written about him/his work. It's a sad day when arguably the best tuner for VX220s is alienated from the very forum that he serves so well.

 

 

Edited by Nev, 06 July 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[mbes2]

 

 

Is that really true - the so called 80mm MAF (Astra VXR) one flat lines it's 5 volt signal from approx. 5000 RPM ?

I have a feeling that on WOT and in high revs the ECU adopts some sort of open loop system that ignores the MAF - it's just a feeling I got from talking to various tuners, so may be wrong.

What does this mean in simple terms nev?

 

 

LOL, send me a pic of you in your bikini and I'll let you know

 

Joking aside, if what Steve has gleaned and I have interpreted is correct, it means that for a Stage 4 car the Astra VXR MAF (80mm ) cannot accurately measure the air going into the engine from approx. 5000 RPM, which might mean a bit of a AFR bodge/assumtion from that point on. However, if my "feeling" above is correct then it would not be an issue.

 

I am fairly certain that Liam would be the best person in the UK to answer this question with certainty. Maybe you could ask him next time you talk to Liam, as I know he understandably won't post on this forum any more due to some of the idiotic/negative/nasty/incorrect things a few people have written about him/his work. It's a sad day when arguably the best tuner for VX220s is alienated from the very forum that he serves so well.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nev]

 

 

 

Is that really true - the so called 80mm MAF (Astra VXR) one flat lines it's 5 volt signal from approx. 5000 RPM ?

I have a feeling that on WOT and in high revs the ECU adopts some sort of open loop system that ignores the MAF - it's just a feeling I got from talking to various tuners, so may be wrong.

What does this mean in simple terms nev?

 

 

LOL, send me a pic of you in your bikini and I'll let you know

 

Joking aside, if what Steve has gleaned and I have interpreted is correct, it means that for a Stage 4 car the Astra VXR MAF (80mm ) cannot accurately measure the air going into the engine from approx. 5000 RPM, which might mean a bit of a AFR bodge/assumtion from that point on. However, if my "feeling" above is correct then it would not be an issue.

 

I am fairly certain that Liam would be the best person in the UK to answer this question with certainty. Maybe you could ask him next time you talk to Liam, as I know he understandably won't post on this forum any more due to some of the idiotic/negative/nasty/incorrect things a few people have written about him/his work. It's a sad day when arguably the best tuner for VX220s is alienated from the very forum that he serves so well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOL

[mbes2]

aaarrh, sorry, you meant Aimy... 

 

I would suspect its a carbon fibre bikini

 

 

Edited by mbes2, 07 July 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[siztenboots]

no what I am saying is the flow rates are very good , consider the very low amount of boost.

 

tbh the sampling rates are pathetically slow so another solution is needed, something that talks the motronic protocols natively, probably means a laptop in the boot.

 

 

[Nev]

I am not quite sure what you are saying Steve. Looking at the data, it seems then going from 5000 to 6700 the MAF is only registering a tiny increase in air flow, when surely it should roughly increase in line with the revs? Maybe the inefficiencies of the turbo at that rev range are squewing the air consumption due to reduce boost. Goodness knows.

[siztenboots]

drifting off topic, but for reference

 

MAF , http://www.bosch.com...ors_airmass.pdf

 

MAP , http://www.bosch.com...ecification.pdf

 

[harboged]

 

 

The intercooler vs chargecooler debate fascinates me. If anyone's done any efficiency calculations I'd be interested? Otherwise as an (ex) engineer I'm probably still capable of working it out by myself if presented with enough data.   The interesting thing is mass flow of air through the RHS turbo ear and through the intercooler and the mass flow of air through the chargecooler rad at the front. Haven't seen any evidence on here of anyone measuring that?   Without wanting to be critical I find it interesting that there's lots of talk about IC and CC efficiency when what people mean is effectiveness. Without knowing the mass flow of the ultimate cooling medium you can't work out efficiency and you can't optimise effectiveness.

LMAO I spent years working designing vehicle thermal management systems (VTMS) and I've given up commenting on this as there's just no point as everyone has an opinion none based on fact or real test data (even those selling the stuff) As for mass low rate then my CFD model of a VX with ears but no blockage for the IC predicts at 45m/s (~100mph) there is just enough flow to cool the charge for 300 bhp. You'll find efficiency and effectiveness are generally used interchangeably when people talk about after coolers even at oem level.

 

 

With thanks to Winstar my charge intake temps have dropped from nearly 100degrees constant to 45 peak and astonishingly quick recovery rates.

 

 

Would you like to explain how you did it?

[Doctor Ed]

The way I describe CC'ing to people is simple. Blow on your finger. Now stick yer finger in yer gob, wet it, then blow on it again - which feels cooler - thats charge cooling

 

thats the most inaccurate thing ive read today

 

(given, it is only 8am) 

Edited by Doctor Ed, 08 September 2016 - 06:12 AM.