677 replies to this topic

[Nev]

I expect the wing is affecting your higher speed straights a good deal, how sure are you that it's actually needed it in a 150 BHP/ton car? I suspect your lap times without it might be a bit quicker, might be worth experimenting without it. Amazing effort to change the gearbox in the paddock, just the thought of it makes me shudder! Good luck.

Edited by Nev, 28 April 2013 - 10:59 AM.

[I 8 a 4RE]

Actually... Having done quite a few track days with Mark there as well ... He is a fast peddler in these type of cars. I understand his emotion / frustration fully, he is probably faster than many of the competitors which makes it frustrating to lose out on the straights. Add to that his experience (on track days) in VX-es and Elise's has been in much more powerful machinery, he has obviously changed his driving style toward that! Mark, what you experience is always going to happen in (grassroots) motorsports, but you have a great team around you and you should be rest assured by that! When I used to race E36's I was thinking about everything in the car, from if I had tightened the wheel nuts to if I had brought coffee for my mum ... And that's no good, so just chillax in the car, you have got a great team in the garage, visualise your laps prior to going in and think of it like this: with less power you have more time to hit every apex perfectly! Therefore no reason not to drive perfect laps. When you are able to do that you will become an EVEN!! Better driver and when you step up to some quicker machinery you will open a serious can of whoop ass! Spoke to Jez the other day about getting my VX on the road again and I shared with him how I truly admire what you guys are doing! The first real racing VX! Trailblazing! Keep up the awesome work!

[oakmere]

If you require more power there are a few things that can be done for very little cost: 2.4 manifold seen quite a few for sale recently max £100 good for top end power. Second hand exhaust manifold. Remove pre-cat free. Weld in 200 cell race cat £80 Mod the air box. Extra inlet and remove the internal trumpet almost free. These will not give massive gains but could free up 10-20 bhp.

[cnrandall]

Actually... Having done quite a few track days with Mark there as well ... He is a fast peddler in these type of cars.

I understand his emotion / frustration fully, he is probably faster than many of the competitors which makes it frustrating to lose out on the straights.
Add to that his experience (on track days) in VX-es and Elise's has been in much more powerful machinery, he has obviously changed his driving style toward that!

Mark, what you experience is always going to happen in (grassroots) motorsports, but you have a great team around you and you should be rest assured by that! When I used to race E36's I was thinking about everything in the car, from if I had tightened the wheel nuts to if I had brought coffee for my mum ... And that's no good, so just chillax in the car, you have got a great team in the garage, visualise your laps prior to going in and think of it like this: with less power you have more time to hit every apex perfectly! Therefore no reason not to drive perfect laps.

When you are able to do that you will become an EVEN!! Better driver and when you step up to some quicker machinery you will open a serious can of whoop ass!

Spoke to Jez the other day about getting my VX on the road again and I shared with him how I truly admire what you guys are doing! The first real racing VX! Trailblazing!

Keep up the awesome work!

Track days are a different game... You aren't allowed to look at the stopwatch to start with! Just look at the guys who started racing when the LOTRDC first started and how far they have come in terms of pace and race craft. There is SO much to learn and often car development gets in the way of focusing on that.

[I 8 a 4RE]

Actually... Having done quite a few track days with Mark there as well ... He is a fast peddler in these type of cars.

I understand his emotion / frustration fully, he is probably faster than many of the competitors which makes it frustrating to lose out on the straights.
Add to that his experience (on track days) in VX-es and Elise's has been in much more powerful machinery, he has obviously changed his driving style toward that!

Mark, what you experience is always going to happen in (grassroots) motorsports, but you have a great team around you and you should be rest assured by that! When I used to race E36's I was thinking about everything in the car, from if I had tightened the wheel nuts to if I had brought coffee for my mum ... And that's no good, so just chillax in the car, you have got a great team in the garage, visualise your laps prior to going in and think of it like this: with less power you have more time to hit every apex perfectly! Therefore no reason not to drive perfect laps.

When you are able to do that you will become an EVEN!! Better driver and when you step up to some quicker machinery you will open a serious can of whoop ass!

Spoke to Jez the other day about getting my VX on the road again and I shared with him how I truly admire what you guys are doing! The first real racing VX! Trailblazing!

Keep up the awesome work!

Track days are a different game... You aren't allowed to look at the stopwatch to start with! Just look at the guys who started racing when the LOTRDC first started and how far they have come in terms of pace and race craft. There is SO much to learn and often car development gets in the way of focusing on that.

I agree fully, what I am saying; the raw pace is there.
Drive from your strengths and focus on what happens on track and keep believing in those strengths.

A good engineer I know always says; you race despite and with all the issues you have and you focus on maximising the car there and then.
You test to take all those issues out of the car.

[cnrandall]

Raw pace does have a habit of showing up on the lap times! Good comparison has to be a Class A LOTRDC car (although they have no aero) http://www.lotrdc.co...und5results.pdf

[Firthy]

Raw pace does have a habit of showing up on the lap times! Good comparison has to be a Class A LOTRDC car (although they have no aero) http://www.lotrdc.co...und5results.pdf

That's the national! Not the international which is what Mark was doing.... what do they do on the international?

Edited by Firthy, 28 April 2013 - 09:00 PM.

[fiveoclock]

Bit of a disappointing weekend really. Clutch problems with a new clutch yesterday and then today. Got a drive through penalty along with car #100, the clio cup with the seq box. He was in front and I was literally a couple of inches of his rear bumper and was concentrating on him and not the flags and we both overtook on a yellow flag. Got a drive through penalty and evn though I tried hard in the last quarter of the race I just couldnt make up the difference to get on the podium. Finished 3rd in class and 6th in the race, 36 car grid. I'm still only running around 137-139bhp/ton and its just not enough if I'm to keep up with the best class B cars. In the wet and the dry today in the corners I'm right up with the leaders pace but in the straights its a different story. More power will be addressed, possibly not by Cadwell on the 11th May but certainly by Brands on the 8th June.

They announced toay that Snetterton on 27th July is to be cancelled and there will be a double header on the Brands GP circuit that weekend. We intend to enter the TDT on the 27th and the Team Trophy on the 28th.

Thanks to everyone who came today, hope you all had a safe trip home.

Try not to get hung up on the power thing, looking at the times I'm sure there is more to come out of the chassis/driver. Remember you still have a novice cross on the back, you're clearly getting a great start but there will inevitably be things to learn. Have you tried sticking a peddler in the car who you know can get within a sec of the ultimate lap time and see what it will do? At this level everyone is on a very tight budget so you want to focus your spend on the areas that count the most which is usually track time and tyres.

I do take on board what you're saying, coming from someone such as you I'd be idiotic not to. I have the best tyres that suit me, they will be chasnged immediately when needed. Regarding the track time, yes I understand this and this will happen in time. however my interest is the next race. Without wanting to be big headed I am faster through the corners than any other car there (and this is with some of my shlt lines) where I'm losing it is coming out of the corners and down the straights and I believe a small injection of power will address this. Please believe me I know the value of track time and instruction but I've got two weeks until Cadwell, I'm nearer the bottom of class C than the top regarding power. I can sort the power in two weeks, I cant sort much track time/tuition in two weeks.

[siztenboots]

how much weight do you lose with a Joe589 front bonnet , there is not much else bodywork wise to remove

[chris_uk]

Just get some more power. Laptimes are ok to look at but they mean little when racing for position. Expecially if the times are similar .5 sec or so difference for example. All you get is that yoyo effect catch them up through the coners then loose them on the straights, catch them back up under braking keep up in the corner and then loose them on the straights again. You really need to be consistantly at least a second faster than the person infront otherwise you cant pass and hold your position then all you do is just end up slowing each other down fighting which allows 3rd person to catch you.

Edited by chris_uk, 29 April 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[cnrandall]

I do take on board what you're saying, coming from someone such as you I'd be idiotic not to. I have the best tyres that suit me, they will be chasnged immediately when needed. Regarding the track time, yes I understand this and this will happen in time. however my interest is the next race. Without wanting to be big headed I am faster through the corners than any other car there (and this is with some of my shlt lines) where I'm losing it is coming out of the corners and down the straights and I believe a small injection of power will address this. Please believe me I know the value of track time and instruction but I've got two weeks until Cadwell, I'm nearer the bottom of class C than the top regarding power. I can sort the power in two weeks, I cant sort much track time/tuition in two weeks.

More often than not a deficit down the straight is caused by a compromised exit from the preceding corner. You can be the fastest car on the track in the middle of the bend but if you don't get the exit right you won't get the lap time. Lap time and % throttle-on time are so intrinsically linked that you need to look at this first and foremost.

Have you got any video, that would really help and I might be able to offer some input off the back of that?

You're doing bloody well anyway, great start to the racing career, not many people would be looking at podiums in their first few races.

[cnrandall]

Just get some more power.

Laptimes are ok to look at but they mean little when racing for position. Expecially if the times are similar .5 sec or so difference for example.

All you get is that yoyo effect catch them up through the coners then loose them on the straights, catch them back up under braking keep up in the corner and then loose them on the straights again.

You really need to be consistantly at least a second faster than the person infront otherwise you cant pass and hold your position then all you do is just end up slowing each other down fighting which allows 3rd person to catch you.

Lap times are more than OK... If you don't have the lap times you won't even be in contention for the overtake! Also, you don't need the fastest car down the straights to make passes, you need racecraft!

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

More often than not a deficit down the straight is caused by a compromised exit from the preceding corner. .

DING!!

Just get some more power.

you don't need the fastest car down the straights to make passes, you need racecraft!

DING!!

Mate Coppice can be your friend at Cadwell!! Be brave through there and get a great exit from Charlies and you'll carry your speed up the hill and p*ss by the other cars. get your exit wrong and you'll struggle to pick up throttle going up the hill.

[chris_uk]

Yea, i know corner exit is important but when you are racing a car which is just ultimatly faster down the straights even if you had a good corner exit it just means the overtake will come further along the straight (if you are infront of the faster car) or the gap will increase (if your behind) which leads onto that yoyo effect i talked about before. when you have 2 cars which are equal in straightaway speeds the corner exit naturally becomes more and more important. The longer the straight after a corner the more chance you have of a faster car passing you. The bigger the power difference the shorter the straight needs to be. Mark has already said that hes faster than them in the corners but on the straights he just doesnt have the pace to keep up, even if he did have a good corner exit he might gain 5/6 mph from a good corner exit to a bad one but if he needs another 10/15mph you can have the best corner exit ever in mankinds history but he still wont catch the guy infront. (I used them figures as an example they are not fact before anyone bites my head off) Unlike time attack which is all about a making space for a clear lap and getting the fastest time on said clear track, mark is actually racing for position so they are allowed to block him, dive down his inside and generally make it very difficult for him. You have to be 10x more aware of someone coming down your inside trying to snatch that position.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

Chris, If Mark was already 100% on his corners then more power would be the immediate answer but he already admits some of his lines have room for improvement and there is time to be had there. More power is always nice to have Chris but finding free time from driving, corner exit speeds stc. is just as important.

[chris_uk]

But its not time he needs... Well yes it is but not in the same way as it is in TA. He is racing for position which means he has to keep MrX behind and try catch MrY aslong as that happens laptimes can be whatever they want (obviously they will be on pace if hes near the front and sh*t if hes near the back). lets just say that he gets all his lines bang on and does so consistantly lap after lap If hes .5 of a second a lap faster than MrY he will eventually catch him. But i can guarentee just because he caught MrY he wont be able to pass so easy due to different cars having different driving styles, lines etc. mark will find he has to slow down in some areas so not to hit him he will just get 'stuck behind' ((you and jimmy have both had the same thing when getting behind someone on your fast laps in TA, you have to drop back or do a pit run just to gain some space, mark cant do that.))., So because mark doesnt have the power to make a good exit stick he will never get infront and if he does he will just be overtaken again next time he gets to a straight unless he blocks which is naughty and dangerous for both and While mark and MrY are fighting MrX comes along and starts challenging mark for position so mark has got to stop being over taken so his defensive lines come out which allows MrY to make ground while mark fights off MrX. what normally happens is that MrY and mark will be so caught up fighting MrX comes along takes advantage and passes them both. Ive seen it soo many times watching onboard gt racing and touring cars. But if that doesnt happen and mark does manage to fight off MrX hes now x seconds behind MrY so hes back to square 1. End of the day unless you can qualify infront you will very rarely beat the top runners with a power/weight defecit which mark has atm.

Edited by chris_uk, 29 April 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[siztenboots]

racing, you see people taking the shortest route to the next corner, so their competitor has to go the long way round, often momentum is lost

[SteveA]

Here is a great example of how the right technique is more important than power. The camera car literally has half the engine of the cars it eventually beats.

[chris_uk]

That kind of illustrates two of my points 1. Camera car was having that yoyo effect down the main straight 2. As white and yellow faught camera car took advantage. (MrX overtaking mark and MrY) The reason camera car could catch was braking, he obviously was more confident on them or they were just better. Only when camera car gained enough time through the corners was white car unable to make up that time and pass but i think that was alot to do with fighting for position with yellow car. If white car was as good on brakes as red car, red car would never of made the pass stick and it would be back to yoyo effect.

Edited by chris_uk, 29 April 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[siztenboots]

of course, if all of us trackday lot , just bought up simple cheap NA's and left them standard we could have a fun class of our own and go racing.