4396 replies to this topic

[ArticMonkey]

It's your driving that needs adapting chris not the car. It's been proven the chassis can handle the added power by Cliffie in time attack. You can't think by adding 70bhp your going to be able to continue how you drove it before. Quite ignorant to think you won't learn from tuition. Like you said you're being stubborn and not accepting known facts. You can always learn something new, even just by following others on track.

Edited by ArticMonkey, 26 March 2016 - 03:39 PM.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Lets not confuse my car with cliffies 

simular power probably 

 

but my car is a road car which does not have any aero or silly gt hubs which will stop me using it on the road c, which was probably 150 kilos less than mine 

which are not things im even considering doing to mine 

 

 

 

 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

cliffie car was built to win time attack mine is not 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

i never said i wouldent learn from tuition either but surely i would learn from tuition in a car i feel more confident in 

[Acidpopstar]

I'm stubborn for one And as for lessons I think they will unleash time for a track with local knowledge but it won't make me a better driver Plus what we're saying is ove got to spend even more money to get the best out of the car which will make me enjoy it even less than the £500 it costs per track day

Not following your logic there fella. Lessons will make you a better driver, end of. This will in turn enable you to enjoy your car more. And what's another £20 or so when your car blows the equivalent out of it's exhaust down the main straight?

[Captain Vimes]

Tuition is worth a shot.

 

I've only had tuition once in the vx and he taught me something different on every corner of the track. And also told me the tyres were sh*t (RSR's) and I should put some decent rubber on.

[WrightStuff]

Tuition is worth a shot.

 

I've only had tuition once in the vx and he taught me something different on every corner of the track. And also told me the tyres were sh*t (RSR's) and I should put some decent rubber on.

 

What did you bin the RSRs for ?

I'm not defending them btw I am on 888s but due to be replaced :-)

[CocoPops]

Certainly sounds like you found the limit of your driving at 300, so the extra 50 is wasted. Either get some tuition, as many have said, or sell the harrop and go back to 300.

[garyk220]

Any chance the lack of difference in lap times is due to high intake temps reducing the power with your Harrop set-up? On the road the extra 50bhp will be easy to take advantage of as you'll never be using full throttle enough for temps to become critical. But on track it won't take long for temps to build up to the point where the ECU is having to back off to protect the engine. Mike would probably have been doing shorter full speed stints in Time Attack so would probably have been less likely to suffer from heat build up.

 

I had a fairly similar issue with my turbo after fitting the original Pace charge cooler system. It was fine for short bursts of acceleration on the road. But on track intake temps climbed above 70 degrees after only a few laps (I saw a peak intake temp of 87 degrees competing at a hill climb event). The charge cooler system was not efficient enough to reject the heat through the rad.

 

My max speeds and acceleration rates suggested my Stage 2 power (245ish) was backing off to less than standard power after 5 or 6 quick laps.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Certainly sounds like you found the limit of your driving at 300, so the extra 50 is wasted. Either get some tuition, as many have said, or sell the harrop and go back to 300.

This is exactly what I was thinking back to M62 It was fun enjoyable and within my limits

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Any chance the lack of difference in lap times is due to high intake temps reducing the power with your Harrop set-up? On the road the extra 50bhp will be easy to take advantage of as you'll never be using full throttle enough for temps to become critical. But on track it won't take long for temps to build up to the point where the ECU is having to back off to protect the engine. Mike would probably have been doing shorter full speed stints in Time Attack so would probably have been less likely to suffer from heat build up.   I had a fairly similar issue with my turbo after fitting the original Pace charge cooler system. It was fine for short bursts of acceleration on the road. But on track intake temps climbed above 70 degrees after only a few laps (I saw a peak intake temp of 87 degrees competing at a hill climb event). The charge cooler system was not efficient enough to reject the heat through the rad.   My max speeds and acceleration rates suggested my Stage 2 power (245ish) was backing off to less than standard power after 5 or 6 quick laps.

No I monitored intake temps that day It was lack of confidence getting on the power also corner speeds were slow because the tires were past there best Also the extra acceleration was causing confidence lifts Will admit that particular track does not lend itself to power and more to handling IMO both would be good though

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Roll on angelsey

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Less talking more action

[NickB787]

Chris get out with me and Adriano really great training he made me 12 sec a lap quicker in an afternoon at Bedford WELL worth the money do one session and I bet you will notice the difference. Yes the Harrop will drive differently than the m62 but all you need is to get used to it, with your setup you need to feel confidence in what you have and how to use it to the max

Edited by NickB787, 26 March 2016 - 07:13 PM.

[Nev]

I'd suggest more rubber, it really changed the confidence in my car, though it does have it's negative sides too. Loads of times I think I must be near the limit of traction, so on a wide open road with plenty of space and no other cars etc I warily wiggle the steering to see what happens and almost always the car has loads more grip than I imagine. If you are ever passing Bristol feel free to give me a call/PM and I'll show you happily.

 

At the end of the day, everything the car does is though the rubber. The right compound (for your temps/conditions) and the amount of it. I've learnt this the hard way 3 times now.

 

I dunno what widths + compounds you are driving on, but if you power has gone up from 150 HP to 350 HP, that is a 230% increase in power. Have you increased your grip by 230%...?

 

Edited by Nev, 26 March 2016 - 08:13 PM.

[Captain Vimes]

Tuition is worth a shot.   I've only had tuition once in the vx and he taught me something different on every corner of the track. And also told me the tyres were sh*t (RSR's) and I should put some decent rubber on.

  What did you bin the RSRs for ? I'm not defending them btw I am on 888s but due to be replaced :-)

I'm still on the same worn out RSR's and actually quite enjoy feeling the car moving around. For more grip, I'd be looking at Avon ZZR'S. They've pretty much been designed for the elise, they're super sticky AND reports are that they last for ages too.

[MAXR]

Chris, I don't think your Harrop will be less enjoyable or slower than your previous M62. I do however think that your tyres & experience may be a limiting factor, although I have heard good things about the RSR's on track & you can drive quickly! A Harrop IS quicker in a straight line than an M62, no question! (I followed GeorgeBC in Lee's car at Snet in my stage 3 M62 with a passenger, so weights were similar) Lee's car was quicker in a straight line... It will also be quicker accelerating out of a corner compared to a similar M62 car, due to the increase in torque, no question! I'm trying to make myself available for the 24th too. You're welcome to try my car if you fancy. I think it's similar to your setup, but with an M62 & V70 tyres. I'd be happy to drive your car & let you know my thoughts on the setup, power delivery for a comparison. You may also benefit from following a few of the quicker drivers on the day to see where they break, carry speed & to follow their lines. Once you feel able & happy with your ability to correct oversteer/understeer on or above the limit, you will go MUCH quicker! Did you ever drive Geary's Na? That's what you need to learn in, as you will use & extract every ounce of power everywhere. It is also a real doddle above the limit, really slow adjustable oversteer, through every corner, similar to captain's setup. There's a lot to be said for it!

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

No never drove Gearys car Will be very interesting what you make of mine if you can get there , it's only ever been described in the past before the winter upgrades as " underivable " Maybe I should ditch the RSRs now I be done with it even though I wanted to try the car with new setup on RSRs just to see if I can feel the difference between the two setups on same tires

[MAXR]

Chris, it may well be your tyres giving you a lack of confidence. If you have taken your car to MBR, then I'd presume it's setup fine, although I'm sure he'd be happy to check it over if you are that concerned. The extra torque from the Harrop, will take you past your comfort level more quickly, especially if you're not comfortable controlling your car when it's breaking traction. The best modification to make your car go quicker is......Track tuition. Forget, quantums, V70's, Harrops, GT hubs etc etc. Nothing will make you go faster or make you enjoy the car more & it's transferable to your next car!! Problems just occur quicker the faster you travel on track, so your confidence is Paramount & practice is the key. If you're not relaxed & holding the wheel without having white knuckles, then you will not be smooth or able to anticipate the car & correct traction issues in or out of corners. Spend time in the passenger seat with a confident, well driven experienced driver & it will rub off. Then get him to be your passenger, try & just work on the basics: 🏎 Make sure your tyres are set to a reasonably low pressure to allow for the increase on track (29 psi max hot temp on track) 🚕 Hand control on the wheel (check out captain's videos & numerous others) quarter to 3! 🚙 RELAX when driving & be comfortable at the wheel with arms kinked, not straight. 🚗 Have a harness & be strapped in reasonably tight (you will feel the car moving under you far far sooner & be able to react more quickly) 🚓 Make smooth inputs & look way ahead at the approaching corner & not straight in front of your car. Know where you should & want to be after you exit the corner & it will happen. 🚑 Practice getting on the power smoothly out of the corner, nothing else is more important. 🚙 Don't coast up to a corner, because it feels more comfortable. Keep Testing how far you can keep on the power before you have to brake firmly & smoothly to let the car settle enough before entering the corner. You should not have to get back onto the gas mid bend because you are travelling too slow. Again, keep looking way ahead of the apex of the bend & your car will follow What your eyes are looking at. 🚒 Once you know a track reasonably well, just try to improve on 2 or 3 corners not close together on each lap. Ensure that you approach each corner & exit that corner whilst looking ahead at where you want to come out. The corners before long straights are the most important. 🚗 Finally, when you see me in the bar, always buy me a drink!

[Captain Vimes]

Good advice from Max.

 

As you're off to Anglesey I thought I'd put together the video of the tuition I got there. The key messages I took away are covered by Max so I'll re-quote key points for me:

 

...it may well be your tyres giving you a lack of confidence....

🚓 Make smooth inputs  🚑 Practice getting on the power smoothly out of the corner, nothing else is more important. 🚙 smoothly, let the car settle enough before entering the corner.  🚒 Ensure that you approach each corner & exit that corner whilst looking ahead at where you want to come out. The corners before long straights are the most important.

 

And add/emphasise:

-work with the car, not against it

-the whole lap should 'flow'

-focus on corner exit speed, not entry (this was/is a big problem for me)

-transitions should be smooth and gentle

-Inputs to steering, brakes and throttle should all be measured and controlled i.e. squeeze it on don't stamp on the throttle. "Treat it like a good woman. Caress it gently"

 

 

Not sure about the advice from Chris about "linear power delivery so change up early" BUT changing up a little earlier takes pressure off the car and calms everything down. Being a gear too high gives more time to think about throttle,steering and brakes. It's not a qualifying lap and it helps build a smooth, flowing rhythm.