363 replies to this topic

[VIX]

Can we agree a stiffer bar is good?

If you want potentially more understeer, yes (assuming you mean at the front).

[Scuffers]

My, this is an interesting thread....

[P11 COV]

I do find it strange that JG should be recommending such an expensive and complex option such as cornering force.How do you know it's so good when your car isn't used that much and (as far as I am aware) you do not track it that often either?

Thats a little unfair.

I use it for two or three track days a year and don't mind giving it to people i trust to drive on track either. Jimmy had multiple goes at Anglesey with it last year, the videos of which are plenty on here. Mike drove it at le Mans (that was a bit scarier :lol:/>)I've tried some of the set-ups listed here, oh and I specialised in active suspension systems (using Lotus f1 dampers) once upon a time so i have a pretty good grounding in how it all works.

I'm all for using the car properly, but i do like it to be clean too. :D/>

I thought i was about as unbiased i could be and deliberately refrained from stating why i think one option is better than an other, speak to all the suppliers (and even me), make your choice.

Fair enough, but still to expensive for me so on that basis I'm out. :-)

[darronwall]

just fitted all the cornering force stuff to my car,you can have a poke about at cadwell this sun if you wish

[2-20]

I would get a Blackwatch racing one $350 and it comes with adjustable endlinks

[Scuffers]

It just gets better and better....

[vocky]

Eliseparts adj anti roll bar on mine, did what I wanted it to do and at a good price too

[cnrandall]

Can we agree a stiffer bar is good?

If you want potentially more understeer, yes (assuming you mean at the front).

You have to go MUCH stiffer to get into understeer on most tyres.

[siztenboots]

I am still using original blue bar , to me I feel the weak point is on high speed turn in, e.g. copse corner

[Asheey]

It just gets better and better....

What's your opinion on the subject Scruffers?

[Scuffers]

Consider this, Makes little odds what steel is used to make an arb , for a given size/gauge they will have almost identical 'stiffness' So,unless you change the pivot points, etc, one man's 1" Arb will be much are same as another... Adding blades, etc is all well and good, but do you really need that level of adjustability and at what cost in both money and life? I am also not a fan or rear Arb's, all they do is make the backend snappy at the limits, and really compromise traction buy unloading the inside rear, (and then some would sugest you have to have an lsd ). Typically, a 1" Arb is man enough for 99% of users, although forma road car, it's somewhat OTT

[Gedi]

Eliseparts adj anti roll bar on mine, did what I wanted it to do and at a good price too

Hah, in a thread full of technical details, this is actually one of the most useful posts

[Asheey]

So a typical forum user. 2/3 trackdays per anum. 80% of miles are done on the road. Youd suggest keeping the stock item and your cash in pocket?

[Spitfire Engineering]

Consider this,

Makes little odds what steel is used to make an arb , for a given size/gauge they will have almost identical 'stiffness'

So,unless you change the pivot points, etc, one man's 1" Arb will be much are same as another...

Adding blades, etc is all well and good, but do you really need that level of adjustability and at what cost in both money and life?

I am also not a fan or rear Arb's, all they do is make the backend snappy at the limits, and really compromise traction buy unloading the inside rear, (and then some would sugest you have to have an lsd ).

Typically, a 1" Arb is man enough for 99% of users, although forma road car, it's somewhat OTT

Interesting.
For sure if the same diameter, wall thickness and steel grade is used you can expect a similar graph, that explains why the CF front has a setup has a much larger OD that all the others.

Not sure what you mean by life Simon? time?
To have the extra adjustability, not only finer but also over a greater range can hardly be a negative characteristic? and the life/time saved by not taking the front suspension to bits every time you want to change the rate but just bend down and twist (10 seconds) is surely much greater? I Don’t get your point.

The rear bar works perfectly, not snappy at all nor has it any other negative characteristic. I agree it takes a lot of knowledge to set it up correctly as it introduces yet another variable.

1” is good enough if you are happy to use heavy springs to control the roll instead. And lets be clear some people are. others are not.

[Winstar]

Interesting.
For sure if the same diameter, wall thickness and steel grade is used you can expect a similar graph

Steel grade doesn't influence the stiffness as the properties of all steels is more or less the same in the elastic region higher steel grades just increase the point at which it becomes plastic.

I don't think people are comapring like for like as the cornering force setup is designed to work with matched softer springs and dampers, being the previous owner of Paul car I know it has fairly stiff Nitron single ways on it so the most cost effective upgrade would just be one of the EP bars or even the yellow Lotus one from the exige.

[SimonR]

Winstar is right - the grade of steel isnt the factor in sizing an ARB to get a specific rate. the main thing is the OD of the tube or bar (given that the other factors are determined by the fit in the car) the OD is so important as its function in the stiffness v displacement graph is to the fourth power. So go up a few mm and the stiffness increases immensely. the ID makes less difference as the function is OD^4 - ID^4.. this means you can make a bar hollow and have little effect on the stiffness - but you do make it more responsive. the question isnt "is stiff rate better than a soft rate" the question is "is the rate "right". Grip is destroyed by tyre contact patch load variations and so much of the work we do in defining set-up parameters and testing is around controlling this - this is the driver for getting the rates "right". my point here isnt to haggle over which bar is better than another but to explain that the springs, bar and dampers need to be well-matched to work together. They also need to be set at a rate that suits the use the car gets, the tyres, the driver etc etc. there are very good rules of thumb that help us work on the proportion of stiffness that comes from an ARB - both front and back. if Scuffers has had problems with a rear bar then it is likely that the bar was not well-suited to the car set-up. our set-up suits some people because they buy into the dynamics philosophy i have explained on here - for others they like another approach and thats fine. Money is certainly a factor and the kit we sell isnt the cheapest, partly because we provide 2 bars with all the fittings rather than one! cheers Simon

[SteveA]

Just to add, I have the CF setup and have probably done more laps than anyone else that I'm aware of who has the kit fitted. IMO it is an excellent setup and the difference between it and my previous setup of Sachs shocks and EP arb is night and day.

[vocky]

the difference between it and my previous setup of Sachs shocks and EP arb is night and day.

thanks for that, having currently got the Sachs and EP stuff I now know that I will end up with Nitrons and the CF set up

[SteveA]

It's hard to explain how different the feel is and it it would be a massively subjective answer anyway. To put it in lap time metrics (this can also obviously be affected by quite a few parameters like track temp etc etc but) on a similar day with the only change being the CF kit on my local track, I was consistently 2 seconds a lap faster on a sub 1 minute lap.

[JG]

Neil, you can try mine anytime. That will show you that you want CF and SC all in one go