363 replies to this topic

[chris_uk]

scuffers... what are lap times going to prove?

Edited by chris_uk, 15 March 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[oakmere]

I think there is going to be an interesting dynamic in the Cliffie garage this year!

[Scuffers]

scuffers... what are lap times going to prove?

So, in one stroke, you have just written off the whole point in racing......

Why else would you fit performance enhancements without them enhancing the car.

Edited by Scuffers, 15 March 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[techieboy]

I did Silverstone Arena circuit in 15 minutes with it. Cadwell in 9 minutes. Oulton International in 11 minutes. Anglesey Coastal in 6 minutes. Le Mans Bugatti in 3.5 days and Snetterton 300 in 5 minutes. Does that help? Probably not but I'm not trying to eek out every last hundredth of a second to make the car and driver competitive. I could care less. I don't claim to be a race driver nor do I claim my car is a race car (that's kind of the whole point, I don't want it to be) and until I can string together 3 consecutive laps on a trackday, within 5 seconds of the previous one, it's a bit of a pointless comparison, for me.

[P11 COV]

...

Edited by P11 COV, 15 March 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[chris_uk]

scuffers... what are lap times going to prove?

So, in one stroke, you have just written off the whole point in racing......

Why else would you fit performance enhancements without them enhancing the car.

Me thinks your not getting this....

how are your laptimes in a car compaired to someone elses car going to prove or disprove a mod? in this case an ARB

there are way too many variables to take into account, the only way this will be accomplished would be to have a single car, same driver etc and change just the arb's and set them up accordingly.. only then will you really be able to see which is better than another..

[P11 COV]

...

Was going to say something but then couldn't be arsed.

[darronwall]

I once shagged someone who had been in eastenders's cousin,and she was a squirter

I'm still waiting for some real laptimes from the CF boys... (or are you hoping nobody will notice...?)

[Nikov]

Who here races? With 2 notable exceptions the rest are track day cars and road cars.

[Spitfire Engineering]

Surely the cheapest option is to do nothing at all …..

Indeed.

Setup/test drivers at Lotus like Dave Minter are arguably the best in the world at such things, so long as you are intending to drive the car on the factory intended road surfaces like "Joe Average" then you will be hard pressed to beat the basic factory setup. Though I understand the OP mainly drives his on track, so some changes may well be waranted.

There is a lot of common sense in what you say, but you have to remember that what a test driver would want to produce and what the lawyers, sales managers etc, want to see are not the same, nor should the accountants input be ignored. (This last point is very poignant).

The lawyers will want to see handling characteristics that are considered safe and very forgiving, (this alone hacks into the test drivers dreams) sales reps want to display the handling qualities but also the comfort, the accountants want it done with the cheapest possible components and so by the time the ideal becomes the reality it has been heavily compromised.

Unless you include computer controlled driving aids, stabilisation systems etc, to give the driver a higher level of controllability without allowing him to lose control you will always end up with a softer car than some would wish.

[Spitfire Engineering]

I'm still waiting for some real laptimes from the CF boys... (or are you hoping nobody will notice...?)

"I had a girlfriend once, I sent her a love letter and she signed it and gave it to her other boyfriend"
"was that gotta do wiv me"

PEYEEWT

From: London Boulevard

[Scuffers]

scuffers... what are lap times going to prove?

So, in one stroke, you have just written off the whole point in racing......

Why else would you fit performance enhancements without them enhancing the car.

Me thinks your not getting this....

how are your laptimes in a car compaired to someone elses car going to prove or disprove a mod? in this case an ARB

there are way too many variables to take into account, the only way this will be accomplished would be to have a single car, same driver etc and change just the arb's and set them up accordingly.. only then will you really be able to see which is better than another..

So back to what's the point then?

Why spend money on something that people are not prepared to quantify?

Is Mike wasting his time trying to improve his car?

The very fact that nobody has ponied up any times kid of illustrates the point.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

Simon, it is not always about racing or fastest lap times. The CF set up I drove on JGs car was lovely and is a great solution on a road car or those not so serious about tracking. If you are looking to focus on track stuff, the traditional route of stiffening the chassis through spring rates is the way forward IMHO. I am totally unbiased on this subject BTW.

[siztenboots]

or the fact the timing is not allowed for trackdays, not all of us compete

[Scuffers]

Simon, it is not always about racing or fastest lap times.

The CF set up I drove on JGs car was lovely and is a great solution on a road car or those not so serious about tracking. If you are looking to focus on track stuff, the traditional route of stiffening the chassis through spring rates is the way forward IMHO.

I am totally unbiased on this subject BTW.

With respect, that just makes it worse...

why in gods name do you need an (rear) ARB on a road car in the first place (you could actually argue the same for the front one, hence why the std item is so weedy)

Look, somebody needs to explain WHY you need a rear ARB on one in the first place.

I am the first person to admit running a (relatively) stiff ARB on a road car would be less than ideal, as all that will happen is you get bump-loads transferred across the car (why do you think we have independent suspension to start with?).

to then argue that a rear one is for road use is somewhat perverse? seems to me it's more about 'please come and spend some money with us' to me.

I (as have others) tried to run rear ARB's on track-race cars, and whilst it's not a black and white issue, to get one that's stiff enough to have any real effect is hard to start with, and once you are at that point, it's actually pretty unpleasant.

two main issues, as it loads up the loaded wheel, it unloads the other one, to the point that you now have zero grip/traction on the inside wheel, and as we all know (or dam well should), two tyres on the ground will always grip better than one.

second problem is that once you in a corner and the suspension had reached it steady state (relatively), if you then hit an bump with the inside wheel (like the apex kerb), that load is suddenly transferred across to the loaded wheel, which if it;s at anything like it's grip limit, is going to upset it, at which point, your going sideways, very suddenly.

Now, I agree, most purpose built race cars have rear ARB's, but please remember the Elise/VX platform was not designed like this, it's a road car with all the compromises that brings, like high COG etc.

Lastly, from what I have seen of a lot of rear ARB setups, they seem to all rely very much on bracing againstthe rear subframe, well, to my mind these are wobbly enough as they are, adding additional torsional loads to it is not going to help it's case, also a lot seem to use the top read wishbone to attach to, bad idea, as the only link this has to the uprights is the two plinth bolts, that are not designed/orientated to take vertical loads (and are fragile enough already - seen way too many fail on road/trackday cars when people do not keep a check on them).

in summary, uprating the front ARB to improve it;s track manners/performance is a no-brainer, there are several on the market, and broadly speaking, one makes 7/8" or 1" etc. bar will be very similar (in stiffness) to another.

Personally, for a road car and occasional trackday, a 7/8" one is probably sufficiently stiff to help without any real road car downsides.

Also, please remember that an ARB is very much a tuning device, and should not really be looked at as a substitute for springs/dampers, they all have to work together along with the tyres.

[P11 COV]

Can I congratulate you with a well reasoned and clear argument. Even a numpty like me understood that.

[Firthy]

Nail on head...... the people that come on here and rave about the CF setup... are inevitably the ones that have invested in it. Or trying to sell it. Anyone with experience of a wide variety of set-ups (very experienced people) that I have spoken to and have driven a CF car reckon its average on the road and compromised for the track. Most people that have this setup came from very stiff Nitron setups.... however the damping has moved on recently and if you don't spec stupid spring rates you really can have a good ride on the road that works on track.... which IMO makes this cornering force set-up an expensive waste of time.

Edited by Firthy, 16 March 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Bumblebee]

1 persons is another persons same with a lot of things IMO when it comes to "modifications"

Edited by Bumblebee, 16 March 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[chris_uk]

scuffers... what are lap times going to prove?

So, in one stroke, you have just written off the whole point in racing......

Why else would you fit performance enhancements without them enhancing the car.

Me thinks your not getting this....

how are your laptimes in a car compaired to someone elses car going to prove or disprove a mod? in this case an ARB

there are way too many variables to take into account, the only way this will be accomplished would be to have a single car, same driver etc and change just the arb's and set them up accordingly.. only then will you really be able to see which is better than another..

So back to what's the point then?

Why spend money on something that people are not prepared to quantify?

Is Mike wasting his time trying to improve his car?

The very fact that nobody has ponied up any times kid of illustrates the point.

Im not saying that anyone is wasting time when trying to improve im just pointing out that you cant compare your laptimes against someone elses and then say the reason your faster is because of the arb setup. There are too many other factors like driver, power, weight, tyres etc to take into account.

Like ive already said, until you get 1 car, 1 driver and test it back to back with the different arb's your never going to answer to which is better. All your going to get is one mans opinion to another.

Edited by chris_uk, 16 March 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[JohnTurbo]

Im not sure its fair to argue that an anti roll bar unloading the inside wheel is a reason why you shouldnt use one on the rear. Why is this downside outweighed on the front by improved control of roll, but not at the rear? There is vx coming close to beating hill climb records with no arb at all.