533 replies to this topic

[Scuffers]

Scuffs I think you have misread Jimmy's post in your haste to blast him I believe Jimmy was referring to the fact that it is not just the shocks that cause wheel spin on the inner wheel by illustrating that wheel spin is still an issue on cars fitted with 46s, ones which you agree do not present any problems.

i never suggested that, i have not experienced the 46mm ones on a VX, so can't say one way or the other.

You also need to accept the fact that not everyone is interested in racing their cars and that over the years, for the vast majority of Nitron specced NTR 40 cars, their owners have been happy with the results (me included) You don't have to agree with it, just accept it is the case!

could not agree more, as i have said before, getting campers right fir a road car is way harder. and saying people are happy is not really objective when they have not experiences what they should be like?

[alexb]

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Just a note because we've discussed the rears at length - I hope everyone is aware the front situation is very much the same, with the exception of the potential to damage wishbones.

 

I'm hoping the results of this will be very positive!

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(somehow lost the quote function. The above is a previous post in this same thread)

 

 

Just to check I did some measurements on the front yesterday. Disclaimer: my car, my Nitrons (40's older ones).

- dampers full open: 325 mm

- dampers close till bumpstop: 285 mm

- bumpstop feels like a marshmellow, so I took 15 mm bumpstop compression, ending up with about 55 mm total available travel (max is 70 mm without the bumpstop). This may be more, but it's kind of arbitrary not knowing the compression characteristics of the stop

- leverage ratio is about 1.26. This is difficult to measure. I got arm length till upright swing point of about 385 mm and till damper mounting point of about 305 mm with a variance of about 5 mm, that means leverage is somewhere between 1.22 and 1.30

- damper is mounted at an angle of about 60 degrees (wishbone - damper) at ride height. You have to compensate for that, which means a factor of 1.15 approximately (1/sin angle)

- total factor is 1.45 or taking measurement variance into account between 1.4 and 1.5

- I measured the factor (delta wheel movement / delta damper length) and came to the same approximate 1.45. Don't take this as gospel, measuring the front is more difficult than the back. It should be ballpark right however

- I have 40 mm droop

- with the 55 mm damper travel, I have 55 x 1.45 = 80 mm (ballpark, OK) at the wheel

- at my ride height of 115 mm I end up right in the middle of the available damper travel

 

Not too bad, certainly not compared to the back. Could perhaps use a little more droop. If you increase the length with say 10 mm, you have about 15 mm more droop at the wheel and 15 mm less bump. But the bumpstop figures in large here. In case the available damper travel is 60 mm (bumpstop compressed to 10 mm instead of the 15 mm above), you have about 90 at the wheel and could get to 35 bump, 55 droop

 

Would be nice if someone else measures too and compare results.

[JohnTurbo]

Hmm that certainly doesn't sound like my fronts. As mentioned...barely 100mm ride and 15mm droop.

[Exmantaa]

I read somewhere a ratio of ~1.5 at the front, so comparable to your 1.45 ratio. I measured my fronts, but don't have the exact numbers here. Travel was about 50mm without bumpstop compression....

[Scuffers]

I read somewhere a ratio of ~1.5 at the front, so comparable to your 1.45 ratio. I measured my fronts, but don't have the exact numbers here. Travel was about 50mm without bumpstop compression....

damper to wheel ratio at the front is a moving goalpost, the way the damper is mounted, it's a falling rate system, ie, the lower the wheel height (as in as the wheel goes into bump), the less the damper moves relatively.

[alexb]

And just remembered something: I had to get special brackets as the body of the damper didn't fit. On the invoice these are described as 'Front Brackets 46mm RacePro, N46RPBLHD'. They might have decreased the standard distance between the mounting points. Also measured the standard dampers for reverence: 355 mm open, 58 mm to bumpstop and 85 mm without bumpstop. Quite a hard bumpstop.

 

So beware that because the front brackets can be changed, the distance between the mounting points is a variable now. At the same ride height, you can have different distances. With my measurements and using the standard brackets, you probalby end up with very little droop. But it's relatively easy to solve: other brackets.

[alexb]

 

I read somewhere a ratio of ~1.5 at the front, so comparable to your 1.45 ratio. I measured my fronts, but don't have the exact numbers here. Travel was about 50mm without bumpstop compression....

damper to wheel ratio at the front is a moving goalpost, the way the damper is mounted, it's a falling rate system, ie, the lower the wheel height (as in as the wheel goes into bump), the less the damper moves relatively.

 

 

That's right and I actually had a look at it, because the angle is such that you expect that. If you calculate it, I get to a wishbone angle of about 10 degrees (arc through which the wishbone travels with 50 mm damper travel). The difference that causes in the mounting angle is less than that. So yes, it's falling rate, but almost neglectable. I'd say it's 5% or less just looking at the bump travel (about 20 mm at the damper)

 

For people wondering what falling rate is: with the wheel extending the force and the damper action going through a lever and at an angle to the wishbone, you have to compensate for that. When the wheel moves say 10 mm, due to the lever and the angle, the damper will move less. So the rate of the spring that is mounted as seen by the wheel, is not the spring rate (the number on the mounted spring). Lever is always the same, as the mounting points are fixed. The angle of the damper however changes going in bump/droop. Not an issue in droop, but when the rate as seen by the wheel decreases in bump, which is called falling rate, you can get all kind of issues. It's actually the reverse of a progressive spring. With falling rate the spring acts weaker the more you get in bump.

 

(OK, I read a book. Again a disclaimer, I have no practical experience whatsoever)

[Scuffers]

don't have the figures to hand, but it's a bit more than that.... gets worse the lower you go (as in the rate of change)

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

FFS Jimmy, the subject is the SHORT NTR's

 

NOT fcuking 46MM ONES!

 

 

Look, you clearly have no experience of any of this stuff, you have been selling them for some time, yet clearly know NOTHING about it other than they are great.

 

I do wish you would give it a rest and let others actually solve the problems that you and others have just ignored (whilst making a few quid out of them).

 

 

 

 

 

The sad thing is I think you might actually believe that.

 

A few points -

 

I've not ignored this issue to make a few quid....  That's bordering on a libellous remark Simon and totally out of order!  Trying to bring me personally into question,....  How dare you!  The fact is I only started sourcing Nitron stuff for the forum in 2011 some 2yrs after this issue was resolved so have ignored nothing.  It's all been by mail order other than one NSS fitting (which was free) and on NTR fitting a week or two before the National.

 

Since this 'issue' was raised I have worked directly with Nitron on the forums behalf to reach a resolution.  It has cost me a significant amount of my time too; you have no idea what's been going on behind the scenes. 

 

In fact ; you have done absolutely nothing constructive but cast doubt and launch character assasinations on anyone who opposes your remarks.  You may be a techy guru but you are grossly innaccurate with your allegations, rude and avoid pertinent questions that come your way. 

 

You've created a massive sh*t cloud about an issue nobody's ever had. 

 

This defines you Simon I'm sorry to say.  At the mention of your name nobody say 'yeah nice guy, great driver, clever bloke!' as they should they say 'that guy's horrible he should be banned form the forum'.  That is pretty sad in my books given your raw talent.

 

Anyway this will be put to bed soon enough.  Those that are effected and need a resolution, please pop over to the other thread as I have news for you

 

Simon, stay here

[Exmantaa]

I read somewhere a ratio of ~1.5 at the front, so comparable to your 1.45 ratio. I measured my fronts, but don't have the exact numbers here. Travel was about 50mm without bumpstop compression....

 

My Hoffmann fronts, and also the "shorty" NTR set, measure 325-326mm with 48mm travel without the stop. (add 10-15mm compression?)

[chris_uk]

You've created a massive sh*t cloud about an issue nobody's ever had.

to be fair, the issue has always been there, just none of us knew it.

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

You've created a massive sh*t cloud about an issue nobody's ever had.

to be fair, the issue has always been there, just none of us knew it.

Or experienced it..... It's not that in question though Chris it's how he's addressed it and how he addresses people.

[Scuffers]

maybe you should have done something earlier then? i gave you more than enough hints/PM's and time.... please remember, i never created this problem, i never sold or fitted any of them, (and then ignore the issue)... look, i am not blaming you for the problem, just your response to it, and your not alone in this.

Edited by Scuffers, 31 July 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[VXT Tim]

You certainly weren't shy on milking it for as much as possible though.

[Scuffers]

You certainly weren't shy on milking it for as much as possible though.

ok, I'll bite... please explain what possible gain there is for me in any of this?

[VXT Tim]

You certainly weren't shy on milking it for as much as possible though.

ok, I'll bite... please explain what possible gain there is for me in any of this?

All time classic lord troll status?

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

You certainly weren't shy on milking it for as much as possible though.

ok, I'll bite... please explain what possible gain there is for me in any of this?

Popularity

[Scuffers]

You certainly weren't shy on milking it for as much as possible though.

ok, I'll bite... please explain what possible gain there is for me in any of this?

Popularity

you are joking?

[Dave E]

maybe you should have done something earlier then? i gave you more than enough hints/PM's and time.... please remember, i never created this problem, i never sold or fitted any of them, (and then ignore the issue)... look, i am not blaming you for the problem, just your response to it, and your not alone in this.

Can someone please remind me how long Elise Parts and Elise-shop have been selling Nitron suspension and their input to the resolution of this problem. Does anyone think its proportional to the amount sold, compared to Jimmy

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

 

 

 

You certainly weren't shy on milking it for as much as possible though.

ok, I'll bite... please explain what possible gain there is for me in any of this?

Popularity

you are joking?

 

Yes,

 

but you do no your stuff,

and you could be liked very easily if you were a bit more patient with us.