533 replies to this topic

[ghand]

It would be interesting to know how many people fit adjustable shocks and then run standard ride hight. I hold my hands up i know nothing about suspension set up so don't slag me off but would you have a reason for spending big money on a shock that you can adjust presumably to lower the car even if only slightly and leaving the car still looking like its on stilts by not adjusting it.If you don't want to lower it why buy adjustable? So I am presuming you are going to lower the car, then this would cock up all the standard measurements so the Nitrons would then be right I would presume. If they are designed for a lower VX and that's what you do to it then is that not correct? Just a thought from me with absolutely no clue what I am on about as usual

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

 

Simon, I was being intentionally obtuse quoting the droop figures but it is no different to what you are doing with your disingenuous comments.  You've latched on to what seems to be a genuine mistake made by a reputable company and you seem to be quoting that as gospel for all of their products....  Chris has pointed out that this was dealt with a long lont time ago (I've certainly never seen a case of this) so change the record mate.

 

We all know Nitron and Quantum both make great shocks and I supply both as I believe in the products.  I'm not here to slag off one to promote the other but Simon it seems you are. 

 

You dodge direct questions and just reply with the odd "fact" and insult.....  Not cricket old bean.

 

I've not read that other thread yet but was shocked to see the video of Nicks car.  Nick have you spoken to Nitron about this?

 

Look, you can jump up and down all you like, if you want to get all arsey about it, go for it, however, it does not change the basic facts.

 

I note that in all your winging, you have yet to offer one single piece of hard data on any of these threads, only that they are great - really objective stuff.

 

the simple facts are that for whatever reason, Nitrons std offering (both old and new) are physically spec'ed wrong for the VX, in that their open length is too short, leading to the closed length being short enough for wishbone/subframe contact to me made (something already mentioned by others about various dampers).

 

Look, this stuff is not rocket science, if you can't even get the basic measurements right when making stuff, what hope is there for the 'cleaver' stuff?

 

As for the video, I took that when Matt was working on Nicks car and commented about the lack of droop, seeing it like that makes it pretty obvious what the issues are.

 

No, I have not spoken to Nitron about it, why is it my job to tell them how to make dampers?

 

Yes, Nitron have been asked about this specific set of dampers (by Matt on behalf of Nick), the reply came back that these are pre-2010 ones and the post 2010 ones are 402mm long (ie, +~7mm), they have offered to change them to current sped (at a cost).

 

the problem with that is the current spec is still wrong.

 

All that said, I am sure your going to pour more scorn on me for pointing out the blindingly obvious and how it's all my fault etc etc...

 

 

  I'm not jumping up and down and certainly not getting arsey.  I'm just saying it as I see it.

 

I've published the open length info above.

 

What hope is there for the clever stuff....?  Might want to ask Lotus as Lotus Sports are now fitting Nitrons as standard equipment to ALL Lotus Exige cup cars  and are currenctly negotiating carrying that over to all Sport models also.  But I'm sure they know less than you too Simon

[chris_uk]

Its not just about ride height

[Rosssco]

It would be interesting to know how many people fit adjustable shocks and then run standard ride hight.

 

I use Nitrons (CF spec), but the car doesn't run too low, and the only reason I use the adjustment available is to soften them up for road use, which then rarely gets stiffened up as I don't really track the car..

 

Precisely the reason I'm thinking of selling them and buying some Quantum Zeros with progressive springs.. Which would be my 8th different suspension type in 2 year / 10k miles 

Edited by Rosssco, 27 June 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[siztenboots]

It would be interesting to know how many people fit adjustable shocks and then run standard ride hight. I hold my hands up i know nothing about suspension set up so don't slag me off but would you have a reason for spending big money on a shock that you can adjust presumably to lower the car even if only slightly and leaving the car still looking like its on stilts by not adjusting it.If you don't want to lower it why buy adjustable? So I am presuming you are going to lower the car, then this would cock up all the standard measurements so the Nitrons would then be right I would presume. If they are designed for a lower VX and that's what you do to it then is that not correct? Just a thought from me with absolutely no clue what I am on about as usual

 

even at standard ride heights, standard tyre setup being able to corner weight the car is of a very noticeable benefit when driving in low grip conditions as the car is so much better balanced. But I would always put in the front to rear rake

[chris_uk]

Are they using the current spec of nitron? These 'wrong ones' as simon puts it or are they going to be re designed.?

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

Are they using the current spec of nitron? These 'wrong ones' as simon puts it or are they going to be re designed.?

 

 

Current spec. 

[slindborg]

 

Are they using the current spec of nitron? These 'wrong ones' as simon puts it or are they going to be re designed.?

 

 

Current spec. 

 

 

 

well they wouldnt have paid to develop anything And I guess most will be garage jewellery so not an issue if there are any compromises in the way they behave.

 

Lets not forget the Bilsteins weren't 100% perfect (crap platforms, leaking, letting the wishbone hit the tub etc)

[ghand]

Its not just about ride height

I gathered that but do you get my drift if your lowering the thing will this not be more in line with the Nitron length or am I talking bollocks lol

[ghand]

It would be interesting to know how many people fit adjustable shocks and then run standard ride hight.

  I use Nitrons (CF spec), but the car doesn't run too low, and the only reason I use the adjustment available is to soften them up for road use, which then rarely gets stiffened up as I don't really track the car..   Precisely the reason I'm thinking of selling them and buying some Quantum Zeros with progressive springs.. Which would be my 8th different suspension type in 2 year / 10k miles 

You just need more padding on your seat. Lol.

[2-20]

Some facts for Simon

 

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]Open Length (OL) standard OE shocks:  356mm[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL Street Series:  345.3mm   (Difference 10.7mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL NTR shocks 327mm    (Difference 29mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"] [/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]REAR:[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"] [/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]Open Length (OL) standard OE shocks:  420mm[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL Street Series:  415mm   (Difference 5mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL NTR shocks 402mm    (Difference 18mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"] [/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]What you can see are very small differences.  Now, when fitting stiffer springs and lowering the car, the shocks must be shortened.  There is FAR too much droop on the VXs, and getting the shocks to be slightly shorter is a must.[/font]

 

 

Are you sure about the front NTR length.

Knowing that the wheel ratio is about 0.66  at the front and that many of us are on 16inches wheel, you have to be very very low to get any drop

[Scuffers]

the S2 elise rear subframe is different, I was told the top suspension bolt bracket position is different

not sure where this comes from, but no, they are the same as far as the hard points go.

 

So

The shortest length (compressed) wants to be x so it cant contact the chassis, wishbones etc.

The longest length (fully open) wants to be x to allow a decent amount of droop to keep the tyre in contact with the floor. this value i assume can be variable to a point as long as its at least x length

Am i close? Scuffs can you fill in x please?

 

As I said above, VX Rear suspension when measured at the damper goes from ~325-435 at the limits (ie, where the top wishbones hit the subframe).

 

obviously, the open and closed lenghts need to be within this window to avoid contact, and yes, depending on the setup, you may well not need to be using all of the window.

 

Some facts for Simon

 

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]Open Length (OL) standard OE shocks:  356mm[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL Street Series:  345.3mm   (Difference 10.7mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL NTR shocks 327mm    (Difference 29mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"] [/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]REAR:[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"] [/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]Open Length (OL) standard OE shocks:  420mm[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL Street Series:  415mm   (Difference 5mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL NTR shocks 402mm    (Difference 18mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"] [/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]What you can see are very small differences.  Now, when fitting stiffer springs and lowering the car, the shocks must be shortened.  There is FAR too much droop on the VXs, and getting the shocks to be slightly shorter is a must.[/font]

 

so, there we have it, you have no idea what your talking about.

 

it's not possible to have too much droop on the rear of a VX, the challenge is getting as much as you can, not restricting it, this is way more relevent on road cars than track, but the same logic still applies.

 

the issue with running full stroke dampers giveing as much droop as the wishbones can deal with is that the spring package becomes harder as with a single rate spring, you will un-load it way before the damper reaches it's limit, hence why using helpers/tenders is then required.

 

Now, I am sure some will think that's pointless, however, it's actually key. Lotus with the OEM setup compromise by using progressive springs and then cutting the dampers down to suit (you can only make a progressive transition so far), and in specing the Quantum Zero's we took a similar route).

 

Going back to Nicks car, at sensible ride hights (110/120) his were at some 40mm of pre-load, ie. the helper is fully compressed and the main spring is heavily pre-loaded (in the order of some 400+lbs), this at the damper static ride hight is only some 12mm from this pre-loaded point, this translates to having some 16mm of droop travel at the wheels, ie, bugger all.

 

So, as you have kindly posted, the std OE damper is 420 long - (and as I mentioned before, this is very much a compromise), but your also saying that a damper that's 18mm shorter than this is a good thing? (worth mentioning that the wheel to damper rate is ~1.35:1 so 18mm at the wheel is ~24mm at the wheels.)

 

what's even worse is that the dampers closed lenght is too short to prevent wishbone contact in full bump...

 

I am really stuggling to understand how you can begin to defend this? is just plain wrong, period.

 

 

What hope is there for the clever stuff....?  Might want to ask Lotus as Lotus Sports are now fitting Nitrons as standard equipment to ALL Lotus Exige cup cars  and are currenctly negotiating carrying that over to all Sport models also.  But I'm sure they know less than you too Simon

 

 

 

 

Are they using the current spec of nitron? These 'wrong ones' as simon puts it or are they going to be re designed.?

 

 

Current spec. 

 

 

come again?

 

so a different car with a totally different subframe/engine/wishbones/etc uses the very same spec damper as a VX then?

 

Quite asside from the physical spec's needing to be different, the valving requirements for the V6 being several hundered KG's heavier with totally different kinematics are going to be somewhat different to.

 

Honestly, this is exactly the issue I have with stuff on forums, info spouted like gospel when under even coursory examination is clearly tosh, but in the mean time, people have spent hard money on the basis of this info.

 

PLEASE will you take the time to actually learn this stuff BEFORE posting??

[chris_uk]

Just to comment on your very last comment there.. Where would you suggest people learn from?

[siztenboots]

i think its the hard points are different on the Europa, not the elise , as I posted

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

I'm not suggesting they're using VX shocks on an Exige although I can see how my post to Chris may be construed in such a manner. I don't for one second think you believe i did mean that though, more you took it as a tenuous point with which to discredit.... typical. I was using the comments as a defence at your high and mighty claims that Nitron cannot handle even basics which clearly isn't true if Lotus are now using them ahead of any other brands.... Not sure what you're accusing me of saying that's tosh mate but I don't really care. You've been banned from forums and race series up and down the country for the way you are so I'm not going to lose any sleep over your comments. I don't know as much as Simon 'the saviour' Scuffham on these matter and do not claim to do so but I do know your type and I can see how you manipulate half truths to make your point and see how disrespectful you are to people.

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

But what ones are the shineyest

[techieboy]

But what ones are the shineyest

  That's easy. Öhlins.

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

But what ones are the shineyest

  That's easy. Öhlins.

Lol, nice umlaut

[Firthy]

The only thing I can add here is I have the latest spec 40mm fast road Nitron dampers on my car and its a peach on the road and stiff enough for my liking on track... 

 

No problems with droop at all....i.e I dont get a wheel lifting.. IMO the big issue is people spec-ing huge spring rates... then wondering why the ride is crashy!

 

 

[chris_uk]

Nearly 1/2 way to 7 pages.. Keep it going