533 replies to this topic

[siztenboots]

meanwhile back on the topic of 40 vs 46's

[Sticky]

 

 

So....Quantum's Nick?

In an ideal world yes but don't have the funds

 

 

Not sure why you'd think that in an 'ideal world'....?  You've already said that the issue wasn't with Nitron more what was ordered in the first place so no need to lose faith in Nitron; they fulfiled their part of the deal no?  Also you can get NTR 46's for £60 cheaper than standard Quantum singles and these will be far more capable (imo). 

 

Not saying this to poke the big fella in to action again more to add balance that this wasn't really a Nitron issue from my understanding so most of the slagging here has been out of order which is no suprise when you dig down through the smoke and mirrors.

 

My 'ideal world' is one where money isn't an issue (to a point)

Edited by Sticky, 28 June 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[Seb.F]

can't let that one go....   Like for like, the quantum's are cheaper (all be it we are talking £38), but then I should not be surprised you can't seem to add up.

Oh I do wish you would stop acting like a ten year old. Name calling and insults are for the playground, not for grown ups, perhaps if you can't stick to the rules you should go and stand in the naughty corner for a while.

[siztenboots]

 

 

 

So....Quantum's Nick?

In an ideal world yes but don't have the funds

 

 

Not sure why you'd think that in an 'ideal world'....?  You've already said that the issue wasn't with Nitron more what was ordered in the first place so no need to lose faith in Nitron; they fulfiled their part of the deal no?  Also you can get NTR 46's for £60 cheaper than standard Quantum singles and these will be far more capable (imo). 

 

Not saying this to poke the big fella in to action again more to add balance that this wasn't really a Nitron issue from my understanding so most of the slagging here has been out of order which is no suprise when you dig down through the smoke and mirrors.

 

My 'ideal world' is one where money isn't an issue (to a point)

 

 

I think in that case I would have Penske  

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

Not sure why you'd think that in an 'ideal world'....?  You've already said that the issue wasn't with Nitron more what was ordered in the first place so no need to lose faith in Nitron; they fulfiled their part of the deal no?  Also you can get NTR 46's for £60 cheaper than standard Quantum singles and these will be far more capable (imo).    Not saying this to poke the big fella in to action again more to add balance that this wasn't really a Nitron issue from my understanding so most of the slagging here has been out of order which is no suprise when you dig down through the smoke and mirrors.  

can't let that one go....   How is it he fault that when he brought dampers for his VX they were physically wrong for the car?   Please explain how the new ones that are still WRONG are also just fine?   Maybe you would like to explain how it;s a great idea to have a damper that's closed length is shorter than the limits of travel for the wishbones?   People paying big money for this kind of stuff should be able to do so without having to second-guess if what they are  paying for is right.   lastly, are you for real? going on about half-truths? where? what?   like the one you have just said, Also you can get NTR 46's for £60 cheaper than standard Quantum singles and these will be far more capable (imo).   Like for like, the quantum's are cheaper (all be it we are talking £38), but then I should not be surprised you can't seem to add up.          

I'm in work on phone so can go mad.... I didn't really mention half truths did I...? Probably a good term though as you only seem free with half the truth. You've got a handful of cases here with issues with too little droop. One if which was a special order so not the fault of manufacturer the other some old shocks that you've turned up that could well be a special order too for all we know.... Cheaper like for like...? I wasn't aware you offered a 46mm option? Your standard tubes from online prices seem around £300 more than Nitron but admittedly I'm just going off EP prices so not sure what other options you have...? For clarity could you list up your shock range and prices then we can compare directly.... I agree 100% that people should get too quality for their money and on a whole they get that from Nitron as Quantum. Grabbing a couple of rogue orders and claiming that represents the whole product range is rubbish though.

[slindborg]

triple madness

 

 

Was my reply to the pm not supportive enough?

[Scuffers]

 

I agree 100% that people should get too quality for their money and on a whole they get that from Nitron as Quantum. Grabbing a couple of rogue orders and claiming that represents the whole product range is rubbish though.

 

hang on a sec...

 

couple of rouge orders?

 

I thought we have already established that the 'std' Nitrons are 402mm and this TOO SHORT (previously, they were ~395mm ie. even shorter)

 

so, I fully expect that ~90+% of the ones out there are TOO SHORT.

 

or are you still going to claim that running some 25mm less droop (at the wheels) is a good idea?

 

(worth mentioning at this point this is hardly a new problem, or one that's limited to the VX, been seeing this for years)

Edited by Scuffers, 28 June 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

Can I get my head round this please, I have followed the thread so far and want a little clarification.

 

As I understand it, Sticky ordered a brand new set of Nitron NTR from Hoffmanns had them them fitted and the car geo'd by a respected outfit back in 2009. He has used the car on track for the last four years with no complaints. I even drove it at Le Mans and it was a lovely compliant car that handled really well..

 

Roll forward to 2013 and Sticky takes his car to another specialist who points out his shocks do not offer enough droop as they are the wrong static lengths from manufacture and Sticky is now not happy with his dampers.

 

So my questions are:

1. Are they the right static length for cars running race ride heights around the 90mm mark?

2. If the lengths are fundamentally wrong and Hoffmanns spec'd the damper lengths from Nitron are Hoffmanns not to blame?

3. If Hoffmanns did not spec the damper lengths and just the valving and spring rates and if the lengths are wrong, are Nitron not to blame?

 

I really don't understand how Nitron could have been supplying dampers in both 40 and 46 NTR spec wrong for so long and with so many people happily using them and with good results. I understand Sticky is not using standard supplied Nitrons which makes me think that Nitron have not been supplying dampers that are wrong at all, just this set (and maybe a couple of others) that have been special order.

 

 

[Mike (Cliffie)]

I don't know if this is relevant but the Quantums I run are not off the shelf lengths and have been specially assembled to cope with the ride heights I now run and the Quantums off the shelf from EP are longer to cope with more reasonable and standard ride heights.

 

 

[Scuffers]

Can I get my head round this please, I have followed the thread so far and want a little clarification.

 

As I understand it, Sticky ordered a brand new set of Nitron NTR from Hoffmanns had them them fitted and the car geo'd by a respected outfit back in 2009. He has used the car on track for the last four years with no complaints. I even drove it at Le Mans and it was a lovely compliant car that handled really well..

 

Roll forward to 2013 and Sticky takes his car to another specialist who points out his shocks do not offer enough droop as they are the wrong static lengths from manufacture and Sticky is now not happy with his dampers.

 

So my questions are:

1. Are they the right static length for cars running race ride heights around the 90mm mark?

2. If the lengths are fundamentally wrong and Hoffmanns spec'd the damper lengths from Nitron are Hoffmanns not to blame?

3. If Hoffmanns did not spec the damper lengths and just the valving and spring rates and if the lengths are wrong, are Nitron not to blame?

 

I really don't understand how Nitron could have been supplying dampers in both 40 and 46 NTR spec wrong for so long and with so many people happily using them and with good results. I understand Sticky is not using standard supplied Nitrons which makes me think that Nitron have not been supplying dampers that are wrong at all, just this set (and maybe a couple of others) that have been special order.

 

 

the ones he has are 'std' (at the time) Nitrons.

 

How many posts have there been over the years about wishbone damage due to incorrect length dampers?

[Mike (Cliffie)]

 

Can I get my head round this please, I have followed the thread so far and want a little clarification.

 

As I understand it, Sticky ordered a brand new set of Nitron NTR from Hoffmanns had them them fitted and the car geo'd by a respected outfit back in 2009. He has used the car on track for the last four years with no complaints. I even drove it at Le Mans and it was a lovely compliant car that handled really well..

 

Roll forward to 2013 and Sticky takes his car to another specialist who points out his shocks do not offer enough droop as they are the wrong static lengths from manufacture and Sticky is now not happy with his dampers.

 

So my questions are:

1. Are they the right static length for cars running race ride heights around the 90mm mark?

2. If the lengths are fundamentally wrong and Hoffmanns spec'd the damper lengths from Nitron are Hoffmanns not to blame?

3. If Hoffmanns did not spec the damper lengths and just the valving and spring rates and if the lengths are wrong, are Nitron not to blame?

 

I really don't understand how Nitron could have been supplying dampers in both 40 and 46 NTR spec wrong for so long and with so many people happily using them and with good results. I understand Sticky is not using standard supplied Nitrons which makes me think that Nitron have not been supplying dampers that are wrong at all, just this set (and maybe a couple of others) that have been special order.

 

 

the ones he has are 'std' (at the time) Nitrons.

 

How many posts have there been over the years about wishbone damage due to incorrect length dampers?

 

But Sticky said his were not standard Simon but were ordered and I would imagine, spec'd by Hoffmanns.

[Scuffers]

But Sticky said his were not standard Simon but were ordered and I would imagine, spec'd by Hoffmanns.

 

 

they are std sized, no idea what valving they have in them though.

[siztenboots]

standard VX , or standard Nitrons across all S2 based Lotus.

 

I mention as I have run the NTR40 on mine for many years, very happy with the setup, and they were 2006 speced for the exige , got them from one of the elise trophy guys , I have the dimensions for them

[Scuffers]

standard VX , or standard Nitrons across all S2 based Lotus.

 

I mention as I have run the NTR40 on mine for many years, very happy with the setup, and they were 2006 speced for the exige , got them from one of the elise trophy guys , I have the dimensions for them

Std VX as confirmed by the measurements from both Nitron and Jim

[Sticky]

Let me clarify my position.

 

Yes I have been happy with the handling however if I'm going to spend a significant amount of money paying someone to set my car up after a full suspension refresh and they tell me they can't do the job to the level they want then that is a problem for me.

 

As I said before I'm no Cliffie et al but I do expect things to be done/supplied correctly if I'm spending my hard earned.

 

I apologise if any of my posts have pointed the finger, that wasn't my intention

 

 

[Bumblebee]

What are you going to do now sticky?

[slindborg]

 

Can I get my head round this please, I have followed the thread so far and want a little clarification.

 

As I understand it, Sticky ordered a brand new set of Nitron NTR from Hoffmanns had them them fitted and the car geo'd by a respected outfit back in 2009. He has used the car on track for the last four years with no complaints. I even drove it at Le Mans and it was a lovely compliant car that handled really well..

 

Roll forward to 2013 and Sticky takes his car to another specialist who points out his shocks do not offer enough droop as they are the wrong static lengths from manufacture and Sticky is now not happy with his dampers.

 

So my questions are:

1. Are they the right static length for cars running race ride heights around the 90mm mark?

2. If the lengths are fundamentally wrong and Hoffmanns spec'd the damper lengths from Nitron are Hoffmanns not to blame?

3. If Hoffmanns did not spec the damper lengths and just the valving and spring rates and if the lengths are wrong, are Nitron not to blame?

 

I really don't understand how Nitron could have been supplying dampers in both 40 and 46 NTR spec wrong for so long and with so many people happily using them and with good results. I understand Sticky is not using standard supplied Nitrons which makes me think that Nitron have not been supplying dampers that are wrong at all, just this set (and maybe a couple of others) that have been special order.

 

 

the ones he has are 'std' (at the time) Nitrons.

 

How many posts have there been over the years about wishbone damage due to incorrect length dampers?

 

 

Including some wishbones damaged on OEM Bilsteins...

[cnrandall]

In an attempt to wrap this up please:

 

Hofmann's (me) supplied Sticky his dampers back in 2009 and at that point in time I had been assuming that the VX dampers of 'standard' Nitron length were the same as the 111R/S2 Exige dampers.  Very early on I spotted the problem and went to Nitron, with a car (can't remember who's car) and came up with a different spec with both longer body tubes and longer rods to increase both open and closed length.  IIRC the closed length of the Nitron was based on the closed length of the stock VX which was also too short.  

 

The problem with the overly short closed length was that at extreme amounts of bump travel the wishbone would hit the subframe causing damaged wishbones and the interim (and adequate) cure for this was an extra bump stop which ensured no damage could happen.

 

Ideal open length of the damper is up for debate and different people will have different opinions as to what is right or to what suits their driving style.  There are lots of factors involved and when you vary spring rate, tyres, weight, geo, ARB etc etc the ideal amount of droop changes so its nowhere near as black and white as Scuffham suggest and the dampers that Sticky has remain 'fit for purpose'.  However, personally, I do actually agree with Simon that Sticky does not have ideal amount of droop travel and I am, as we speak, working with Nitron to resolve the matter. 

 

As ever, Nitron are very open to with you/me/us on improving their product and moving thing forwards.  Of course, as we do move things forwards the product improves and the older gen products become outdated, such is life.

[2-20]

I'm on 2 ways Nitrons (2nd hand but they were initially purchased from TMS in 2006.

I measured them at the rear at around 390 mm fully extended. They were measured on car and not accurately so the length is in line with what Simon reported.

My ride height is set at 130 mm at the rear and i've only 20/25 mm of droop measured at the wheel.

It's defiinitely not good.

I will ask Hoffman to have them revalved and lengthened

[chris_uk]

Isnt it probably accurate to say that these companies got the standard shocks which came off the car, measured them and replicated the lengths? If the standard shocks were wrong (there has been evidence of standard shocks allowing wishbone to chassis contact) then these companies just copied what they had it was never ever going to be right.