533 replies to this topic

[Scuffers]

 

the fact that nitrons VX dampers seem to be speced too short (as in to the point of having sod all droop)

So to go back to page 1 where Simon kicked off this little bun fight with his poison. This is just his opinion and not reflective of any long term or on going fault with standard Nitrons.

Now there's a surprise!

Mike - additionally MAXR's car has tons of droop as he has the same spec as mine which ive measures and he has full rear tenders. The wheel was still unweighted by the dynamic of the weight distribution on that corner though so the pikey std diff would spin the inside wheel. This like you said is where an LSD comes to the party cheers for bringing some clarity back to things, I was going round in circles with Scuffers.

 

no, I was quite right... much as you keep banging on, it's not going to change the reality of the situation.

 

the goal posts are fixed, ie. the limits of travel for the wishbones - and to put this in numbers [color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;] VX Rear suspension when measured at the damper goes from ~325-435 at the limits (ie, where the top wishbones hit the subframe).[/color]

 

​so, *any* damper that had open or closed lengths outside of this range are plain wrong, no amount of bullshit can justify making a damper outside of this range.

 

Right, the STD Nitron that Nick had were measured at 395 open with ~95 stoke  - this gives a closed length of some 300mm - 25 mm beyond the point of wishbone contact with the subframe.

 

the *right* thing to do would be to make them 25+mm longer by a change of end-cap or eyelet, this would then have made them 'safe' in terms of avoiding contact as well as adding 25+mm to their usable droop.

 

how anybody can defend NOT doing this I cannot understand.

 

How anybody can defend the product as being 'right' is also beyond my comprehension, you might just as well argue black is white.

 

The sad part of this is that at any point in the last 10+ years, nobody at Nitron (or their dealers) has actually taken a car and simply measured the limit's of travel, it's not hard.

 

 

 

 

[Scuffers]

Congratulations!!! (7 pages and still going strong)

 

I'm the happy owner of old spec Nitrons and did some measuring and calculating before and after fitting, so I feel I can add to the confusion with some confidence. If the wishbone articulation from top to bottom is really 435 to 325 mm (I have no reason to doubt this, but will measure it this weekend) and you design a shock with about 90 mm useable travel, it does stand to reason that all that travel should be within the articulation limits of the wishbones. My Nitron's go from 395 mm open length to about 305 closed (that includes 2mm bumpstop compression). At the closed end, that's outside the wishbone articulation limits. There is still more than room enough at the full open end. I call that a specification or a design error, as you can not use the full travel of the shock and there is no reason not to. All you have to do is make the body 20-25mm longer. And this is regardless of everything else that comes to play. I'm very willing to listen to anything that says this statement is BS, but with the measured values, that's all I can make of it.

 

And now for something entirely different: the amount of travel of the shock that you actually use may very well be within the limits even set by a shock that is not using the optimum in wishbone articulation. That will depend on spring rating and damping settings of the shocks, but in most cases I guess it will be given that most owners of such shocks are quite happy with them. Me amongst them. Although I have to say that I would prefer my shocks to be 20-25 mm longer, as this would give me more freedom to play with settings.

exactly.

[TazN]

I seriously cant believe it has taken 8 pages! to get to this point but I am glad it has got here and in a way that I expect pretty much everybody can understand (well I think I get the jist at the least).

 

Wishbone articulation is the distance between hitting the subframe above and below it. This is 435-325mm - providing this figure is correct then that is the area the dampers need to be working in. I can also confirm that OEM bilstiens hit the frame above and cause the 'wishbone dink' that people have seen, myself included. Upon mentioning this to a Lotus specialist they had not heard of this problem before so I presume the elise/exiges do not suffer from this on standard specs.

 

Does anyone have a set of new style NTRs that they can measure - and not base them off Nicks or anybody elses old ones that may or may not be the 'standard' spec that nitron sell.

 

I can see how if they are designed to work outside of this articulation window it would cause problems with hitting the chassis/subframe, that seems logical. For me to carry on any further though I can see I very much need to understand things more but I presume ride height and the myriad of other adjustables will alter this articulation window?

[Scuffers]

I presume ride height and the myriad of other adjustables will alter this articulation window?

no, unless you change wishbones or uprights, the window does not change, only variable is how much of it you choose to use.

[Rosssco]

 

Does anyone have a set of new style NTRs that they can measure - and not base them off Nicks or anybody elses old ones that may or may not be the 'standard' spec that nitron sell.

 

I have a set fof 40mm NTR's (CF spec) from 2011 currently off the car I can measure, but not till Monday. Although I'm sure the embers of this thread will still be going by then..

[TazN]

ty for the clarification scuffs - now that I think about it it's blindingly obvious the window doesnt change size 2 fixed points and all that. 

I have this picture of the rear in my head and trying to see how 1 change affects everything and I can only remember 1 or 2 things so have to keep going over the same thing.

 

So the window is the window no matter what unless you p*ss around with wishbones or uprights which is only a handful of people going the extra mile and for that reason I'd say not worth going into for this discussion - we can have another marathon thread another time

 

Ross, if you can then by all means go for it. I've only recently fitted mine and despite running a tape along them I dont remember any numbers, nor did I think to write them down 

 

As all the talk so far has been regarding rear dampers - are the fronts all ok then? I presume (again) that the articulation is bigger as there is less subframe to hit so around 130' of movement?

 

[siztenboots]

so for a damper with open length too long , what do you do , install a shorter rod , or remanufacture the body , or something else

[cnrandall]

ow anybody can defend the product as being 'right' is also beyond my comprehension, you might just as well argue black is white.

 

The sad part of this is that at any point in the last 10+ years, nobody at Nitron (or their dealers) has actually taken a car and simply measured the limit's of travel, it's not hard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you not read my post?

[Mike (Cliffie)]

so for a damper with open length too long , what do you do , install a shorter rod , or remanufacture the body , or something else

From what I understand that isn't the case here, isn't it that Sticky's shock travel window goes too high for the wishbones allowing top chassis contact but not low enough to offer the droop required. Have I got that right?

[TazN]

Thats how I stand it Mike. He should have another ~25mm of travel but the subframe will make contact with the wishbone.

[Exmantaa]

Following this thread with interest and it comfirms the doubts I had on the rear with a pair of NTR's. Good solid info here!. 

Was even considering to remove the welded shock mount on my rear frame and replace that with a bolted mount so I could change the pick-up height. :-/ Bit using a longer shock is the easier option...

 

(It would be good if you simply could buy/choose a few different length endconnections to alter the shock length.)  

[Scuffers]

 

so for a damper with open length too long , what do you do , install a shorter rod , or remanufacture the body , or something else

From what I understand that isn't the case here, isn't it that Sticky's shock travel window goes too high for the wishbones allowing top chassis contact but not low enough to offer the droop required. Have I got that right?

 

 

Yes,  his dampers are too short, not too long.

Thats how I stand it Mike. He should have another ~25mm of travel but the subframe will make contact with the wishbone.

 

yes/no...

 

the travel (~95mm) is fine, the problem is the start/finish point, such that he can't use the last 25mm of travel without wishbone contact, and he is missing the additional ~25mm length in droop...

 

in reality, all that's needed is either a longer end-cap (on the damper tube) or a longer eye on the end of the shaft, and if I was going o pick a length, I would add 35mm to it as I want the droop not the bump (at the sensible 110/120 ride heights he has).

Edited by Scuffers, 28 June 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[turbobob]

Must resist urge to....... Spam. Oh fcuk it ARSE!

[Scuffers]

Following this thread with interest and it comfirms the doubts I had on the rear with a pair of NTR's. Good solid info here!. 

Was even considering to remove the welded shock mount on my rear frame and replace that with a bolted mount so I could change the pick-up height. :-/ Bit using a longer shock is the easier option...

 

(It would be good if you simply could buy/choose a few different length endconnections to alter the shock length.)  

see what your saying, but why would you need to have different shock lengths if they were right in the first place?

 

limits of the car are ~325-435mm, so a damper that does ~330-430 is going to be spot on for *any* possible ride height (within the bounds of the std wishbones/uprights).

 

as with most things, if you get it right, you don't need adjustable bits....

[alexb]

I have been wondering about what Exmantaa remarked. Issue is that these shocks are not just made for the VX, Nitron, Quantum and others serve wider markets. So why not make a good shock body and have different length extenders? It's not much of a technical challenge. And you can serve a wider market with a more adaptable product that also can be used when you change geometries. Now it seems everybody has these nice treaded bodies, but practically these are not really meant to change ride height, at least not to the extent that people do.

 

So yes, you can make a fixed product and serve a limited market, but with a little more effort, you can make a better product that is adaptable and serve a much wider market.

 

 

[JimmyJamJerusalem]

Simon stop going on about Nicks shocks. We have already established they are essentially 111r shocks

[2-20]

see what your saying, but why would you need to have different shock lengths if they were right in the first place?

 

 

To get the right proportion of bump vs rebound for the ride height you have chosen whatever wheel you have and to take advantage of the full travel available.

[Scuffers]

Simon stop going on about Nicks shocks. We have already established they are essentially 111r shocks

wrong again - you just can't help yourself can you?

 

111R rear dampers are the same requirements, the wishbone travel window is the same.

 

Keep up at the back!

[Scuffers]

 

see what your saying, but why would you need to have different shock lengths if they were right in the first place?

 

 

To get the right proportion of bump vs rebound for the ride height you have chosen whatever wheel you have and to take advantage of the full travel available.

 

not sure I understand what your saying?

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

see what your saying, but why would you need to have different shock lengths if they were right in the first place?  

  To get the right proportion of bump vs rebound for the ride height you have chosen whatever wheel you have and to take advantage of the full travel available.

Will make no difference because the window is always constant (so I understand from reading this topic) so unless you change wishbones uprights or rear subframe. It won't matter what wheels your using or ride hight. From the other topic the bump/rebound is mainly down to vaulving and spring rate. The travel of the shock is limited to the space available. I hope I got that right haha If your car is so low that you have run out shock travel I should imagine this is a very bad thing???

Edited by Stuwy has gone fishing, 28 June 2013 - 05:19 PM.