793 replies to this topic

[rob999]

What's happening on the driver training front?

[Baron Von Scubadaddy]

Just thought I would share this with everyone. They left alot of tech info out of it which I thought was a shame, but still its nice to have a bit of footage of it moving from the outside

 

 

 

I like that! nice little film 

Car in the tunnel with the florry strip lights above looked nice as well 

 

[Nev]

Good interview, shows what a sane man you are

 

 

 

[turbotoaster]

thanks Nev, talking to people on forums is different than real life so im hoping to meet up with more people on forums and chat face to face as you can never really judge the tone of a conversation proper in word form.

 

Might have some good news on the uprights soon aswell so ill keep you in the loop

[Mangham54]

Close shave at 2:03 with that Xsara Picasso.

[FLD]

Saw this in the flesh at the weekend.  Cant wait to see it ripping up time attack

[turbotoaster]

Saw this in the flesh at the weekend.  Cant wait to see it ripping up time attack

 

Its your fault this happened!! haha

Little update,

Went for a run up the cat and fiddle last weekend, ive now got the engine up to 7000rpm and 16psi and seems to go pretty well, I would like to rev it more to widen the powerband but since im running shorter rods I dont really want to rev it above 7000rpm for the moment.

All was going great until the way home as I went from third to fourth and got no gears, thought I had just missed a gear and went to put back in and couldnt select any gears! pulled over trying to get it to go in and ripped the cable out of the casing

So after turning the engine off and pushing the cable back down the sleeve with my fingers I just managed to get 4th, and then had to drive home in that gear, so pulling off from stationary was fun with all the traffic lights, I suppose having the short ratio box helped in that moment.

Also the reason I couldnt select gear was the slave cylinder bracket had decided to pull one of the bolts out of the gearbox! so the cluthc wouldnt disengage, ive ordered new motorsport cables from yvo and a brace to see if that will help, if it doesnt then ill have to get the welder out and weld onto the slave mount so it can hook up to another bolt in the box

next thing was I wanted to try a smaller turbo on the car so I can work out which will give me more area under the graph with my current gear ratios.

Its much smaller than my current turbo, this new one is a T3 with a 27lb compressor wheel and a 0.48 rear housing, its not going to make much power but it should be nicer on the road than my big one which I will either run on track if the dyno agrees its faster or ill save it for the big spec engine im building where I know ill be able to rev it to 8000rpm and produce alot more exhaust gases lower in the rev range to help with spool.

60mm wheel vs 76mm wheel!!



Installed, was actually a nightmare and took me 6hrs to swap, I though it would only take 1hr max, but it turns out that smaller compressor and turbine housing caused alot of issues.

First it meant the wastegate bracket wouldnt bolt to the comp housing so I had to modify the bracket and the housing with the angle grinder and the drill.

Next up the oil drain wouldnt fit onto the core because the core had been moved over about 20mm by the rear housing and it was also touching the front housing, so had to grind it smaller to clear, once I managed to get that on I couldnt tighten the bolts between the turbo and manifold because the oil drain was in the way, so in the end I had to pull the turbo, manifold and oil drain out, assemble it all together off the car and then bolt everything back on, which then because the oil drain wasnt in the same position as before meant I couldnt get it back onto the sump properly, hence more swearing(at this point its 1130pm) so eventually I get it back on after alot of shouting. Only to next find because my rear housing is now moved the downpipe is in the wrong place, so got the drill out and made new holes for the exhaust bracket.

Eventually got it all on and started it up about 6pm today after a final hour on it after work

Looks so small, I think it will probably max out at 250bhp which I suppose for the road wont be to bad


Just got to put the cables on now and then we are off to the dyno

[mbes2]

Good testing before time attack sessions 

 

Enjoy reading your updates, as crazy as Nev 

[jules_s]

Have you deleted the PH thread now? Shame if you have

[turbotoaster]

no I havent deleted it, its still in the readers section

[jules_s]

Ah yes I thought it was in the Elise etc section Fairplay

[turbotoaster]

Well its been a fun couple of days this week as I decided it time to get the car on the dyno, make sure my mapping isnt shocking and also get an idea where I am power wise so that I can see where I need to improve.

Ok on Wednesday night I went out to do some more mapping, got my 16psi map pretty much spot on but when I turned the boost up I realised it went completely off the map, after closer inspection it turned out I only had a 2 bar map sensor!

Looked online an a 3bar one is £70, being super tight that i am, I reasoned that well, im not going to be running 30psi of boost for a long time, at best i maybe would get up to 22psi, so how much is a 2.5bar one.......closer look and they are £25 brand new......much better, got one sent out to arrive with me thursday night.

So after asking what changes to make to calibrate it, im told it reads 10-250kpa at 4.5v, the emerald asks me what does it read at 5v and what to do with the voltage offset.

Started the car and my map was complete garbage, everything was wrong from idle, cruise, acceleration, ended up messin with the kpa and voltage setting to get off my driveway, plumbed in a boost gauge and went for a ride to try and adjust it so that it was reading close to what the boost gauge.  After 10mins I had it close enough to make me happy.

And needing to be back in 30mins I had to pretty much map my car doing a few pulls watching the wideband and making changes accordingly. Its an old emerald ecu so i dont have any adaptive learning etc, got to do it all by eye.

So its D day, dyno time, will it blow up, will it over heat, will I make low power.......so many questions in my mind as I set off to face my doom!!

I turn up earlier before it opens so I can let it all cool down to give it a fighting chance, really nice guys at Blink Motorsport, second time ive been there now and they are really helpful, offer impartial advice and generally helped and gave me ideas to think about.



Next it was time to bolt it up to the hub pack, never seen this before so it was an interesting to watch how it all goes together.


Looks quite cool I thought.

So next its time to run it up and do some system checks.

Even only up to 3000rpm when its been loaded there is alot of pressure coming out of the catch tank, to the point it looks like we have boiled a kettle, im thinking to myself that its a bit of a worry and is the engine breathing very hard so are the rings knackered, throwing alot of boost at it might not have been the best option.

We noticed that we could keep the temps down and it was getting hot, suddenly it overheated and through about a litre and a half of water out of the headertank all over the floor.

The Radiator is cold so somethings going on, turn everything off and let it all cool down, top it up with water and try again.

Turns out there was a massive air bubble in the system which was moved when we jacked the car up to put it on the hub dyno.

So this time its much better, water temps are stable, air temps are a little higher than I would like but generally I was expecting that.

after doing some more held runs up to 4000rpm it looks like its getting a bit to warm though so we decide to switch to pulls straight through.

Set the ramp angle to 10seconds like you would do for alot of vehicles, and probably brought the turbo in boost similar to the higher gears in real life.

First pull at we hit 282ftlbs with the torque at the hubs still climbing and then the clutch slips.........not a good sign!!

So the ramp angle is turned to 6 seconds to try and take the pressure off the clutch.

Ive gone very conservative on the ignition timing on the road as I didnt have any det cans, so 13 degrees at 16-18psi should be ample.

So first pull made 233/233, we kept adding a bit more timing up to 17 degrees and came out with 248/247 all at the hubs in the end.

This is at 18psi peak dropping to 16psi.....I was tempted to turn the boost up some more but in the end I thought its best I run it as it is for the moment and see what the car is like on track, after that ill put a bigger compressor wheel on and aim for 300bhp-320bhp

Still dont know where the limit of these pistons and rods are, I was going to limit myself power wise to 250bhp at the flywheel but its holding together I may aswell do a bit of science for everyone else.

Here is the final graph.

On the road it makes full boost at 3700rpm rather than 4500rpm, its just on the dyno it made the clutch slip coming in that early so I think its got more torque than the graph shows



You can see it uses boost to make its torque, but then drops off, so the plan is going to be to put a slightly bigger compressor wheel on there and maybe open the head up a bit to the torque from dropping off which should also help overall power.

Not bad for a setup that cost less than £1k

If i get the weight to 680kg and the power to 320bhp then i will be happy

[Nev]

Coolio Lee, glad it went well for you, it's always worrying going to the dyno isn't it! Your car is so light and if your geo is good I can see you doing very well on the low/mid speed circuits. I think all the aero mods will rob you of top end speed though. I reckon my wing easily eats up 75 BHP at 140 leptons and you have even more stuff strapped onto your plastic rocket. Whats your turbo spec again ?

[turbotoaster]

the turbo is a 50 TRIM > 27LB MIN 42.52 60.12 with T3 0.48 rear housing(V band 2.5" downpipe)

 

So im actually pretty much off the map assuming 13% drivetrain losses.

 

Im going to change the compressor wheel to a 60 TRIM > 32LB MIN 46.48 60.12, but a billet version as I know someone making close to 350bhp on it so I should keep the similar spool time but make more power and torque.

 

If im going to stick with this engine longer term I will take the head off and port it out, through some bigger valves to make the overall setup more efficient, that way It will help hold onto the power at the top end giving me a wider powerband, plus if the head is flowing more at lower rpm that will help with spool, to again widen the powerband.

 

My aero takes up a massive amount of power, so im hoping ill make that time plus more under braking and apex speed, if I dont I can always remove it, nothing aero wise is permanent.

 

Im geared for 145mph at 7000rpm in 5th, so most tracks I shouldnt be to mad on top speed aslong as I have enough power to maintain momentum in the higher speed corners.

 

I would love to see if I can take Copse at Silverstone flat.

 

It would be interesting to drive it now on the little wheels with no aero as that was roughly 55kg lighter, no drag and less unsprung rotational weight, probably fly straight up to 145mph pretty quickly.

 

Obviously one thing to think about is my clutch, its an AP organic, thats only rated to 177ftlbs, im putting at least 110ftlb more through it and its holding and on the road it makes full boost at a lower rpm i think its making more torque so if we turn the power up and its around 330ftlbs then I think the clutch will give up......still for it to hold what it is currently doing is amicable.

Edited by turbotoaster, 18 July 2014 - 10:37 PM.

[Nev]

In my experience, if you think the clutch will fail then it will. The thought/effort of swapping it won't be a nice one though, I'm sure.

[Scuffers]

err...

 

there are NA K series engines out there making this kind  of power...

[turbotoaster]

Not in an elise chassis though Simon they arnt, no where near the torque of mine and I bet they didnt cost £1k to build. If money was no object do you really think I would be en devouring with this.

 

Also first time ever on the dyno, first time ive ever mapped a piston engine and quite a few components that are compromised.

 

Forged pistons and rod, big valves and ports, better chargecooling system and bigger turbo..........at that point the cost will be similar and you can make a more direct comparison I feel

[Scuffers]

Not in an elise chassis though Simon they arnt, no where near the torque of mine and I bet they didnt cost £1k to build. If money was no object do you really think I would be en devouring with this.

 

Also first time ever on the dyno, first time ive ever mapped a piston engine and quite a few components that are compromised.

 

Forged pistons and rod, big valves and ports, better chargecooling system and bigger turbo..........at that point the cost will be similar and you can make a more direct comparison I feel

beg to differ, and so what?

 

my point is that you don't have the power to pull the skin off a rice pudding (relatively), combine that with the aero drag, your going to be an absolute road block out there.

 

just how long do you expect that engine to last?, I doubt it could stand 5 minutes hard cct use... (assuming the gearbox/clutch don't cop out first).

 

it's all very well going on about how cheap it is, but when it goes bang, I suspect the cheapness to fix it again is not so cheap!

[turbotoaster]

As far I was aware, the highest anyone has got in an elise chassis is 252bhp and in a 7 282bhp which according to DVA was because of compromised exhaust manifold design.

 

So what are you saying the alternative is.......take the car off the road for 3yrs so I can save £10000 for a honda conversion and have less power than I do now

 

Or take it off the road for 2 years so that I can build a 190bhp NA k series engine?

 

Thats an actual serious question, you have bought a £10k 111s elise and have £5k to make it as fast as possible on track for maybe 2-3laps at a time, I understand you know alot more about the elise/exige than me, thats not in question, but if you could input your thoughts on it then im really interested.

 

We are both looking these cars from different perspectives, maybe because of naivety on my part but with more experience maybe ill look at things differently.

 

At the moment ive kept the boost pressure under the limit of what the head can traditionally lift, im not chasing numbers with loads of timing or pulling fuel, im only reving to 6600-6800rpm as long as I can keep the inlet temps and water temps at an acceptable level then the only thing I can see being a potential issue is rod strength......thats something that has never really been tested with these rods(turbotechnics) so its a suck it and see type of affair.

 

Surely the idea of aero testing is there is no guarantees from a visual build, isnt it better to get the vehicle on track and see where it is in regards of lap time, I can always take the second element of the wing off for example, remove the canards.....both of those will reduce drag.

 

Do I guarantee that the car will be overall faster with all the aero on........nope because I dont know, will I test both ways, yep

Edited by turbotoaster, 19 July 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[cnrandall]

That's not completely fair... put 250@ the hubs in the right chassis and you could win time attack.  

 

Clearly there is lots of development to do on this package though, its not even turned a lap yet.  Commendable that Lee has done so much himself.  Of course you/me would do things differently but we have decades of experience that Lee doesn't have yet.