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Elise Track Car Build Thread - Have You Lot See This One?


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#361 turbotoaster

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 10:25 PM

 

 

I would look at tyre temps last. We run that much camber for two reasons, one they need that much as the tyre wear is even, and secondly it better to be on the side of too much camber than not enough. 

 

I would say yes you probably aren't using the whole tyre surface because it was your first time out and corner loading isn't where it could potentially end up.

 

well i know the apex speeds and the turn in points i need to emulate around brands for a 51s lap, so thats what im going to aim for, whether i or the car is that fast i have no idea, but i will be sending the car through at the speed needed so It will either be a win or bin situation!

 

 

Lee, for your and everyone else's sakes, for god's sake don't do that!!!!!!!! How do you know that the track conditions on the day, your tyres, your setup, your driving etc, etc, etc will allow you those specific speeds??? Just get comfortable in the car on whatever day you do and take it from there. Setting yourself a target this early on in your development phase will most likely end in tears.... A 51 second lap isn't hanging around.

 

 

Well you have to learn where the limit is, im not planning on doing a 51s on my first lap, but the one thing i learned from snetterton is I had no idea how fast the car could potentially go so never got anywhere near its potential, when i mentioned I went around corum at 95mph and i thought that wasnt to bad but then you mentioned you turned in 120mph which is a completely different ball game to me as i never learned to use the downforce the car was producing. So because i had no reference point of how fast it could go i didnt go much quicker, at least with brands i have all the corner speeds for a 51s lap and i can slowly build up to those speeds rather than being 10mph slower through every corner because i think thats as fast as I should go.

 

My plan assuming the weather is comparable all day is to work my way up in 2-3mph every lap until im going as fast as I think I can go by the end of warm up, which i should get 12-13 laps sit down and watch the footage, look at the lap and sector times and then compare to what i think the car should be able to do, try and learn from any wrong lines and speeds, then trying and improve on that in the practice, which will be another 12-13 laps, which will hopefully put me in good stead for the qualifying and final..........im typing this out like I think its easy, I do not in the slightest, but I dont have a big pit crew or loads of experience, effectively I was going to be turning up completely on my own like I did at snetterton, so I need to get my day fully planned out with what im going to do to try and maximise the opportunity that i have as its not like an open pit lane.

 

This was the lap that im basing it on, 800kg 290bhp on zzr, chris driving, since im similar power, 700kg, wider rubber and the car should be producing more downforce im hoping that those items will make up some of my talent deficit to chris.

 

 

I understand if its wet or damp i will have to go slower, same if my geo isnt right or the tyres arnt up to temp, thats why im hopefully going to have help on the day from someone who works at a lotus race team as its a big ask to do every single thing on the day myself.

 

Mike has given me a couple of tips on facebook which i have written down and if you have any tips for around there im all ears as 49s is very quick on similar rubber as me, it would be nice to beat the 2 rx7s around there, i wont catch the nobles though.

 



#362 Graeme Lambert

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 12:26 PM

With numbers like this (laptimes) talent is a massive part of it. Don't underestimate that.

 

Less weight, more downforce and wider tyres won't make up for that.

 

G



#363 Mopeytitan

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 07:13 PM

im not an expert and i dont try to make out that i am (have never driven on a track) but surely you should be looking at working on your driving style as aposed to thinking about going through the corners at set speeds?



#364 jonnyboy

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 08:20 PM

Must admit I was surprised to hear the OP is a novice driver. As interesting as this project is all the power and downforce could probably have been offset by learning to drive a pretty standard car quickly. I would invest some time before next seasons TA in this as at the moment you will be getting passed by people in "slower" cars for sure. There are some extremely fast drivers out there and they dont all need to have sprouty out bits on their cars to show it! 

 

Having been passed in my old 270BHP Renaultsport Megane by a standard Mk2 MX5 on the Nurburgring a few years ago I speak from personal experience. Wouldnt happen now I might add ;) Unless it was Dale Lomas driving. 



#365 G-Bob

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 09:54 PM

 

Having been passed in my old 270BHP Renaultsport Megane by a standard Mk2 MX5 on the Nurburgring a few years ago I speak from personal experience. 

 

That's because mk2 MX5s are rapid!   B)



#366 rob999

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 10:12 PM

Asked this question weeks ago but never got a response. I wish the OP the best of luck though.

#367 turbotoaster

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:48 PM

im not an expert and i dont try to make out that i am (have never driven on a track) but surely you should be looking at working on your driving style as aposed to thinking about going through the corners at set speeds?

 

True and if this was an open pit lane i have time to learn the lines and slowly work up to it but because my time on track is limited I ideally need to get up to speed quicker and then learn the car at that level.

 

Running the first session at 90% for 12 laps will teach me more than running at 70%

 

im not saying the first lap i will be going 100% but studying laps from different cars around there does give me greater information to speed the learning process up, means I have an understanding of what similar cars are capable of and gives me a reference point to work off, if i am 20mph slower through a corner than that I know I need to make a change.

 

 

Not for once am I claiming to get the maximum out of the car in one day, but if I can get as much out of it as my skills allow then I will be happy, an open pit lane your time isnt important so you can cruise around, in this instance I dont have that luxury.

 

I did try and get the 3rd of nov at brands booked to have a full day in the car there but it sold out

 

Must admit I was surprised to hear the OP is a novice driver. As interesting as this project is all the power and downforce could probably have been offset by learning to drive a pretty standard car quickly. I would invest some time before next seasons TA in this as at the moment you will be getting passed by people in "slower" cars for sure. There are some extremely fast drivers out there and they dont all need to have sprouty out bits on their cars to show it! 

 

Having been passed in my old 270BHP Renaultsport Megane by a standard Mk2 MX5 on the Nurburgring a few years ago I speak from personal experience. Wouldnt happen now I might add ;) Unless it was Dale Lomas driving. 

 

There will be plenty of track days between november and march next year, my car was never standard when I bought it anyway so its not like i had a starting point to jump on track with straight away.

 

In my class, there is a 650bhp noble which will never catch, a 600bhp rx7 with aero, a 500bhp rx7 with aero........so they have some sprouty bits, how well theres work i have no idea



#368 Zoobeef

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:44 PM

I don't think even the noble is going as quick as Mike was.

#369 turbotoaster

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 08:35 PM

So a bit more work on the car, took the rear clam of to trim the arches some more, left a 2mm lip on there so try and reduce the chance of it cracking, still not ideal and for brands it looks like I will have to run the car higher than i would like at the back because of the compression at paddock hill bend

Posted Image
Always interesting to look at the layout of the engine and visualise where i can improve and save weight
Posted Image

 

The air filter inlet is only temporary until i move the oil cooler to the passenger side

Also made a start on my second aero project, firstly im trying to reduce drag which started with removing the lower section of the rear clam, now its clean up the airflow fitting the front clam, since the car is only run hard for up to 15mins at a time and I have pretty good brakes now I dont think brake cooling is going to be a major issue, for the moment ive covered them in kevlar but i will get them fibreglassed over properly of the winter.
Posted Image

Next is the drag and lift of the front end as the more downforce I can make there, the more I can make use of the rear wing. The sills are being cut out to release the pressure and the same with door as that is being cut and folded in, this should allow the reduction in wheelarch pressure and also allow my front diffusers to be more effective again helping the front end at speed.
Posted Image



#370 turbotoaster

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 07:40 PM

made some more progres on wheel ventilation

 

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Posted Image

 

 



#371 Mopeytitan

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 10:48 AM

You have done some serious work to that car. Might have to get myself along to one of your races ot see it in person and in action. Hopefully it'll all work as you have planned it to.



#372 SteveA

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 02:23 PM

Not that you are going to take any notice of this but I was seeing serious braking retardation after my first serious lap at Anglesey (first after the outlap) losing one third of my braking force (0.4 neg G reduction). Brake cooling should not be ignored, especially in competition circumstances.

 

ETA - :lol:  at you removing drag after you've spent ages adding it.


Edited by SteveA, 30 October 2014 - 02:25 PM.


#373 turbotoaster

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 03:46 PM

Not that you are going to take any notice of this but I was seeing serious braking retardation after my first serious lap at Anglesey (first after the outlap) losing one third of my braking force (0.4 neg G reduction). Brake cooling should not be ignored, especially in competition circumstances.

 

ETA - :lol:  at you removing drag after you've spent ages adding it.

 

well if I can offset some of the drag from the car and make more downforce at the same time then it can only help the car.

 

 

What brake pads and discs were you using that caused them to start to go off after only 1 lap!



#374 simonlpearce

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 04:39 PM

I'm genuinely interested here, but do you have some kind of aerodynamic background? Or how are you going about measuring the changes you are making? I would have thought a lot of trial and error should go into these sort of things, yet i don't see much going on in the way of trial...

 

Also how much time are we talking here by shaving a bit here and shaving a bit there? Surely your time would be better spent out on track behind the wheel, you are for sure going to learn a lot more about what the car can and can't do behind the wheel. Getting to grips with left foot braking, heel toe, quick pump of the brakes to remove the slack just before a corner, and generally learning where the limits are.



#375 cnrandall

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:05 PM

 

This was the lap that im basing it on, 800kg 290bhp on zzr, chris driving, since im similar power, 700kg, wider rubber and the car should be producing more downforce im hoping that those items will make up some of my talent deficit to chris.

 

 

 

 

 

800kg I wish!!! That's Campbell's car, it weighs just shy of 900kg and running 260@ the hubs and on 48's in that vid.



#376 SteveA

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:42 PM

 

Not that you are going to take any notice of this but I was seeing serious braking retardation after my first serious lap at Anglesey (first after the outlap) losing one third of my braking force (0.4 neg G reduction). Brake cooling should not be ignored, especially in competition circumstances.

 

ETA - :lol:  at you removing drag after you've spent ages adding it.

 

well if I can offset some of the drag from the car and make more downforce at the same time then it can only help the car.

 

 

What brake pads and discs were you using that caused them to start to go off after only 1 lap!

 

 

Carbon Lorraine CL5+ pads with ep alloy belled disks and race brake fluid.



#377 chris_uk

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 08:44 PM

Sounds like there was something wrong there tbh steve.. Thats what i have used for ages and ages and never got and brake problems till the end of a 20/30 min session. What fluid was you using?

Edited by chris_uk, 30 October 2014 - 08:45 PM.


#378 SteveA

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 09:09 PM

I'm not saying there was a problem, they consistently performed at 0.8 neg g for very long sessions but their cold stopping power was 1.2 neg g. Tbh ive looked at a lot of data from different cars with the same pads and they were all the same.



#379 chris_uk

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 10:01 PM

Couldnt tell you what mine was tbh. You have the data of mikes from croft what was he getting?

#380 turbotoaster

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 10:57 PM

I'm genuinely interested here, but do you have some kind of aerodynamic background? Or how are you going about measuring the changes you are making? I would have thought a lot of trial and error should go into these sort of things, yet i don't see much going on in the way of trial...

 

Also how much time are we talking here by shaving a bit here and shaving a bit there? Surely your time would be better spent out on track behind the wheel, you are for sure going to learn a lot more about what the car can and can't do behind the wheel. Getting to grips with left foot braking, heel toe, quick pump of the brakes to remove the slack just before a corner, and generally learning where the limits are.

 

No aerodynamic background, I read alot of books, from simon mcbeath, katz and a few others and then compare there findings to wind tunnel data and race cars with known aero or with aerodynamist input, for example andrew brilliant.

 

Alot of the changes made are best practices, I will be covering the car in wool tuffs for the first session so the photographers can get plenty of pics so I can see what the air is doing, from that it should tell me how my diffuser is working and where the air is attaching and where its stalling.

 

Trial is exactly what I will be doing at time attack, see what works, what doesnt and how the car compares to others on the same day and circuit, that will give me the information I need on where to improve it over the winter so that I should be able to hit the ground running come 2015.

 

Everyone has mentioned there will be more time to be gained in my improved driving, that I do not doubt, but for the moment I want to build the car in the way I see best then get on circuit and try it out, time will then come from myself improving and making tweaks to the car as go along.

 

 

 

This was the lap that im basing it on, 800kg 290bhp on zzr, chris driving, since im similar power, 700kg, wider rubber and the car should be producing more downforce im hoping that those items will make up some of my talent deficit to chris.

 

 

 

 

 

800kg I wish!!! That's Campbell's car, it weighs just shy of 900kg and running 260@ the hubs and on 48's in that vid.

 

 

ah right, so even heavier than mine then, will  be good fun to see how close I can get to that time with practice

 

I'm not saying there was a problem, they consistently performed at 0.8 neg g for very long sessions but their cold stopping power was 1.2 neg g. Tbh ive looked at a lot of data from different cars with the same pads and they were all the same.

 

Im running PF pads at the moment as a few of the elise racers rated them highly on stock 2 pots, i will try cl6 in the future, but will need to use all these PF ones first.






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