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saab b207 supercharged m62 ats dtc composite worx re-spray coupe

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#761 Nev

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 11:22 AM

Your torque curve is dropping off due to VE % dropping off. This is most likely due to a flow restriction of either the inlet charge or the exhaust gas. Anything from poorly flowing head, poor swirl, poor scavenging, CC causing turbulence etc etc. Quite hard to pin down most probably, as it could be loads of things. The easier things to eliminate might be to do the follow, do a dyno pull and see if the problem is alleviated: 1. Remove exhaust + manifold. 2. Remove airbox + inlet pipework. 3. Remove the laminovas or whatever CC restriction you have.

  Out with practical considerations, won't removing the exhaust manifold have a detrimental effect on engine efficiency? Plus, where do you mount any lambda sensors?   Removing laminovas would result in the whole thing becoming completely heatsoaked in short order. Those that have run without them only temporarily have reported this.

I'd say with almost certainty that removing the exhaust manifold will yield more power, considerably more on a charged car. I doubt very much that the exhaust is genuinely scavenging more than it is restricting. Certainly removing the laminovas or CC matrix will cause heating issues for > 1 pull, but it will isolate whether they are causing an undue restriction. You could use compressed air from a compressor in the inlet pipe to help keep the charge more cool during the test for example. God luck Graeme, if it were me, I'd just drive it as it is for the summer and then look into this mild issue in the winter. 25 BHP here or there is of little consequence TBH.

Edited by Nev, 08 July 2015 - 11:25 AM.


#762 Rosssco

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 11:29 AM

I'm surprised at that, as I was of the understanding the manifold controls exhaust gas output in a beneficial manner. Plus, its not really a realistic test, as the car is never going to run without a complete exhaust system..

 

Likewise with the laminovas - removing them with help remove the restrictions, but they car will need them in place, so it could just be masking the real issue, such as poor calibration in a certain area.

 

So taking a power measurement with the engine substantially altered, doesn't seem the best way to identify what could be a relatively small issue somewhere.



#763 techieboy

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 11:43 AM

Are you running the extra ProAlloy intercooler/chargecooler (whichever it is) between the charger and inlet manifold on there Graeme, can't remember? What exhaust manifold did you end up using?

#764 Graeme Lambert

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 11:45 AM

Are you running the extra ProAlloy intercooler/chargecooler (whichever it is) between the charger and inlet manifold on there Graeme, can't remember? What exhaust manifold did you end up using?

Yes. And a 2.5inch tullet mani mated to 3inch MBR twin silencer exhaust

#765 CHILL Gone DUTCH

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:23 PM

My old air filter choked my car in the early days of harrop ( this year ) But I do get a unexplained dip also with the same cams But I do think the manifold is also restricting My old pump also was costing me ponies

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 08 July 2015 - 12:25 PM.


#766 Graeme Lambert

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:25 PM

Air filter is the massive ITG that Lee was running, as specced by JG



#767 CHILL Gone DUTCH

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:25 PM

Yep which is similar to mine so we can rule that out as there well over speced even for my car

#768 CHILL Gone DUTCH

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:28 PM

My dip is also around the same rpm

Posted Image

#769 CHILL Gone DUTCH

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:30 PM

I've not been able to pin it down what's causing it But does seem to be pointing towards the cams Or ignition

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 08 July 2015 - 12:30 PM.


#770 Graeme Lambert

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:30 PM

My dip is also around the same rpm

Posted Image

 

Chris,

Do you know if your cams are timed 100% correctly?

 

I know Vocky has mentioned how critical the installation of these is?



#771 CHILL Gone DUTCH

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:31 PM

vocky did them so I can only imagine they are He is quite thorough

#772 Graeme Lambert

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:32 PM

vocky did them so I can only imagine they are He is quite thorough

 

Ok, guess that rules that out then



#773 CHILL Gone DUTCH

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:33 PM

I might start playing with ignition again around these rpm s But have tried in the past but only got knock when increasing and a bigger dip when decreasing Unless I try taking a big step advance in the ignition to over come it which I wanted to stay clear from

#774 CHILL Gone DUTCH

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:34 PM

Unless it is wheel spin

#775 CHILL Gone DUTCH

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:41 PM

Not sure if you know peak power on these cams should come at 8500 rpm 🙈

#776 Exmantaa

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:42 PM

Just seeing the postings here, that Harrop dyno plot is pretty sad and power/torque drops much too quickly. :huh:  (Even for a bit wrong timed cams, the standard ZZP/Comp timing is known to deviate a few degrees.)

Was already looking for this below graph of Speedster4fun's 2.0 Harrop. And if I remember correctly the rpm readout is a bit off there, as his rpm cut on that engine was around 7.7K or so. (Maha dyno rpm readout was visual referenced roller speed vs Stack rpm dial. I must have the actual ecu log from that run somewhere.)

 

The important part is that the Harrop torque should stay pretty flat till >7Krpm! (those tiny jumps in the torque curve come from the wheel loss measurement)

 

Me think you had wheelspin or belt slip. And you can rev up to 7,5K easy with uprated springs. A Harrop likes to rev!

 

Edit; found the ecu log. 7623 max rpm on that MAHA run (uprated single springs.) :happy:

Posted Image


Edited by Exmantaa, 08 July 2015 - 12:50 PM.


#777 leevx2.2

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:44 PM

I would say manifold restriction only runing a 2.5" manifold

#778 CHILL Gone DUTCH

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:47 PM

I would say manifold restriction only runing a 2.5" manifold

Strange as I have a similar pattern in my graphs with a large drop in torque around the same rpms

#779 The Batman

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:47 PM

Yeah it's a shame they 2.5" manifolds don't have a 3" exit bore like it does on a standard/piper manifold

#780 Graeme Lambert

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:48 PM

Wheelspin has been mentioned







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