443 replies to this topic

[Exmantaa]

Hmmmm, aircon....

 

I thought we're trying to find lost engine power here, not adding an extra device that robs power from the crankshaft to drive...

 

PS; it works.. but only if you can chill the liquid while you're waiting for your run on the 1/4mile dragstrip.

[slindborg]

CHILL Gone DUTCH, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:29 PM, said:

slindborg, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:24 PM, said:

Air con won't cool fast enough. Think how slow it is in the cabin, then pump sh*t loads of very very hot air through it, it's not gonna work. By all means try it, as I clearly haven't a clue about air con (cv item, calibrated hvac system in several vehicles)

We are brain storming, but feel free to participate

Ok, fit air con, waste time and resource. Is that better? Not sure if anyone has ever possibly intimated this, but how about a manifold designed to cope with doing what you are all doing to it..... This is probably the reason the yanks convert to turbos

[slindborg]

Exmantaa, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:31 PM, said:

Hmmmm, aircon....   I thought we're trying to find lost engine power here, not adding an extra device that robs power from the crankshaft to drive...   PS; it works.. but only if you can chill the liquid while you're waiting for your run on the 1/4mile dragstrip.

Ac doesn't rob that much to be fair. Think we noted that the merc variable clutch compressor used about 10bhp for max cooling Also, if ac worked for intake cooling, then I'm sure the oem's would have been on that many years ago

Edited by slindborg, 26 June 2014 - 09:34 PM.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

slindborg, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:32 PM, said:

CHILL Gone DUTCH, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:29 PM, said:

slindborg, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:24 PM, said:

Air con won't cool fast enough. Think how slow it is in the cabin, then pump sh*t loads of very very hot air through it, it's not gonna work. By all means try it, as I clearly haven't a clue about air con (cv item, calibrated hvac system in several vehicles)

We are brain storming, but feel free to participate

Ok, fit air con, waste time and resource. Is that better? Not sure if anyone has ever possibly intimated this, but how about a manifold designed to cope with doing what you are all doing to it..... This is probably the reason the yanks convert to turbos

Despite my name I no FA about air con so we can now rule that out, I also didn't think about. The losses of running a pump So air con is a bad idea

[Exmantaa]

slindborg, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:32 PM, said:

 

CHILL Gone DUTCH, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:29 PM, said:

 

slindborg, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:24 PM, said:

Air con won't cool fast enough. Think how slow it is in the cabin, then pump sh*t loads of very very hot air through it, it's not gonna work. By all means try it, as I clearly haven't a clue about air con (cv item, calibrated hvac system in several vehicles)

We are brain storming, but feel free to participate

Ok, fit air con, waste time and resource. Is that better? Not sure if anyone has ever possibly intimated this, but how about a manifold designed to cope with doing what you are all doing to it..... This is probably the reason the yanks convert to turbos

 

 

That is our ideal, but not an easy one!.

 

That German guy is on the right track, only takes forever and no real manifold design yet.  

[Hopegreen]

And what do you think about water injection?

[slindborg]

Hopegreen, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:35 PM, said:

And what do you think about water injection?

It's a sticky plaster

[Hopegreen]

And fitting an extra oil radiator to have a cooler engine?

[smiley]

Hopegreen, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:41 PM, said:

And fitting an extra oil radiator to have a cooler engine?

 

Or extend the manifold laminova water through another one that cools the engine oil. 

 

http://www.speedflow...oler-3492-p.asp

[slindborg]

Over cooling the oil isn't great either, and probably won't solve the issues being seen Oh sorry, that was negative too. I'll leave you all to it

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

slindborg, on 26 Jun 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Over cooling the oil isn't great either, and probably won't solve the issues being seen Oh sorry, that was negative too. I'll leave you all to it

Lol

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 26 June 2014 - 10:17 PM.

[Captain Vimes]

How about a 'sandwich plate' that sits between the charger and inlet manifold that takes the air off through an intercooler and back, to cool the charge before it hits the laminova's - it could easily be placed in the right ear without making the pipework too long...?

 

It wouldn't need too much complex tooling to make but the air path may not be that nice..

 

[techieboy]

That's effectively what Lee has got. You just need a horrible coupe conversion or removing your rear bulkhead to accomodate it.

Edited by techieboy, 26 June 2014 - 10:32 PM.

[Exmantaa]

Hopegreen, on 26 Jun 2014 - 9:41 PM, said:

And fitting an extra oil radiator to have a cooler engine?

 

We're talking about lowering air charge temperatures. Nothing wrong or overheating on the engine/oil...

 

Clearly the heat exchanger inside the SC manifold is not up to the job when pushed. (as discussed several times on this forum)

So:

- lower coolant temperature further for more heat exchange (already quite low, so not much/difficult to improve)

- increase the cooling area by adding an extra heat exchanger before manifold => Lee solution, but this will add extra resistance for the air...

- Increase the current cooling surface inside the manifold (more Laminova surface or different heat exchanger design) => Increases cooling area and "stay-time" of the air, while lowering air speed and resistance. Win-Win-Win.

 (Fit more Laminova cores, fit longer Laminova cores, fit different design heat exchanger)

- Split manifold function by re-routing the air from the SC first into an efficient heat exchanger that is located "outside" of the intake manifold and then routed back. => will increase the airpath length and maybe delay throttle response, but Lotus designed the Exiige SC like that.

 

Anybody with close connections to a cheap aluminium casting faundry??

[smiley]

techieboy, on 26 Jun 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

You just need a horrible coupe conversion or removing your rear bulkhead to accomodate it.

 

You think just a raised bootlid would faciliate enough space?

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Can the one lee has had made be made thinner

[techieboy]

smiley, on 26 Jun 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

 

techieboy, on 26 Jun 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

You just need a horrible coupe conversion or removing your rear bulkhead to accomodate it.

 

You think just a raised bootlid would faciliate enough space?

 

 

Maybe. It's kind of hard to tell in Lee's engine bay with all of the other coupe and roof scoop related changes but it not only moves the charger body up it also pushes it back, closer to the bulkhead. That combined with a phenolic spacer may just push it too far back (like fitting the other phenolic spacer between the charger and the manifold does) unless at the very least, the bulkhead insulation is removed.

[techieboy]

CHILL Gone DUTCH, on 26 Jun 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

Can the one lee has had made be made thinner

 

Probably. But you'd definitely be affecting how effective it is. Maybe to the point that it's not worth bothering with. That's where you need someone like Winstar to actually apply some intelligence and knowledge of cooling efficiency.

[Captain Vimes]

techieboy, on 26 Jun 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

 

CHILL Gone DUTCH, on 26 Jun 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

Can the one lee has had made be made thinner

 

Probably. But you'd definitely be affecting how effective it is. Maybe to the point that it's not worth bothering with. That's where you need someone like Winstar to actually apply some intelligence and knowledge of cooling efficiency.

 

 

This is where moving the heat exchanger outside the intake manifold becomes the better solution - the plate can be kept thin as it only needs to duct the air but the heat exchanger enlarged (air or water) to add efficiency.

 

Given that we already have cooled water flowing around for the laminova's, adding another charge cooling element would be relatively easy with short ducting. It could even sit just above the cam cover in a similar way that the old celcica GT4 setup.

[techieboy]

If you're going to all of that grief, you might just as well do it properly and bin the LSJ inlet manifold. Mount the SC the other way up at the bottom of the engine where the aircon compressor would normally be, make an adapter plate to take the charge air and fire it into the rest of the ProAlloy turbo's charge cooler and out of that and back into the engine through the Saab's cast manifold (sorry, still don't trust the plastic manifolds to hold boost). Would mean a lot more post-charger volume, so boost and compression induced temps would drop even before the charge cooler gets to work. 

 

Winstar asked a question about how much we'd be prepared to pay for a totally new manifold design and we collectively went remarkably quiet when it was obvious that it was going to cost more than £50 to design and produce.