443 replies to this topic

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Retarding ignition from 57 is an oem feature, not an obd tuner feature. (i had the same loss of power feeling on my CS basemap on a hot day)   On last years LOT day at Zandvoort Peter did change the 57 to a higher value on one of the suffering speedsters and the owner complained about performance loss. After checking with Peter later, he mentioned he leaves it to default 57 by default to protect the engine.      

Is this on Tmap sensor Or map sensor ?

[smiley]

 

Is this on Tmap sensor Or map sensor ?

 

 

I'll check with the owner.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

70 degrees on Tmap had a massive power loss

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Interesting to see if it's happening earlier If so it less noticeable

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Based on the info here do you think there is a advantage with manifold intake temps with going to a smaller pulley ? The reason I stayed at a 3.1 pulley is because I thought it would help temps

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 22 June 2014 - 11:11 AM.

[techieboy]

I've never experienced any noticeable power loss on ye olde Courtenay style setup even on hot trackdays with extended sessions. If ambient/inlet air temps (>57°C) are high enough for the ECU to start to pull timing, then for sure it's me that's going to be wilting first and heading for the nearest bit of shade and the ice cream van. That threshold is just too low on a boosted engine where the temp sensor has been relocated and is sat measuring the compressed charge. Seems to me that it's also another reason for a proper standalone where you can run multiple temp sensors and set all of these thresholds for yourself (or at least your chosen tuner can) and not something that's constrained by it's support for a (very) limited number of OEM sensors. Sometimes, ignorance in bliss when it comes to these numbers.

[smiley]

I've emailed Peter asking about how the retarding is built up.

 

 

[techieboy]

Based on the info here do you think there is a advantage with manifold intake temps with going to a smaller pulley ?

More compression will add more heat (and lots more noise).

[smiley]

That threshold is just too low on a boosted engine where the temp sensor has been relocated and is sat measuring the compressed charge.

 

That's why obdtuner customers work together with the designer to make the product better. 

If somebody asks for a custom map where it starts retarding from 70 instead of 57, and the engine does not blow up......

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Based on the info here do you think there is a advantage with manifold intake temps with going to a smaller pulley ?

More compression will add more heat (and lots more noise).

I understand that but we have a stablished that we are cooling manifold inlet temps with the air on wot

[techieboy]

That's why obdtuner customers work together with the designer to make the product better.

That's fine and great. But you can't physically add support for further sensors and use the information from them or drivers for external things like water injection.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

That's why obdtuner customers work together with the designer to make the product better.

That's fine and great. But you can't physically add support for further sensors and use the information from them or drivers for external things like water injection.

I don't think we should get into a discussion about which is better Standalone or obd Comparing chalk and cheese

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 22 June 2014 - 11:23 AM.

[fezzasus]

 

That's why obdtuner customers work together with the designer to make the product better.

That's fine and great. But you can't physically add support for further sensors and use the information from them or drivers for external things like water injection.

 

 

Not entirely correct, example is the EGR being used as a wideband lambda.

 

Peter is also adding water injection functionality for v. 3

[Scuffers]

Wonder if it pulls even more ignition as the temp rises more and more

I would assume so? depends what the correction table says

 

70 degrees on Tmap had a massive power loss

 

depends, once again, unless your into det or the map has pulled ignition timing, then not necessarily 

 

  think about the airpath when the engine in on very light load and the SC by-pass is open.  

So we've seen several data traces now where intake temp increases on smaller throttle opening/light load. And I have thought about the air path when the bypass is open. Struggling to conclude why temp goes up. So with the valve open, the manifold is in vacuum - that's what opened the valve. Here air is drawn in from the charger intake before the compressor directly into the manifold and I assume follows normal path from there - ie through the laminovas. So how is it getting heated to the point it's hotter than compressed air from the charger on WOT?

 

easy.

 

when the by-pass opens, the airflow is though the charger and back round the bypass, thus the air in the system goes through the (HOT) SC several times, unsurprisingly, this get's it quite hot, and all the more because at lot throttle openings, there's not much air to take up this heat

 

I no this doesn't show the actual numbers of power loss Bit it does show that there is significant loss on the second lap as the stage four turbo goes past me Earlier in video I have legs on the turbo in a straight line but when I hit the power on the straight I felt the power loss The Tmap was reading 70 degrees when power dropped badly

that's a turbo car, completely different set of issues.

 

air mass for a turbo is temp and pressure related *AFTER* the turbo, unlike with a (positive displacement) supercharger.

 

please try and understand what actually happens here, and stop mixing up different issues from different engine setup's.

 

with a SC install, unless you get to the point of having to pull timing to prevent det, a change in IAT after the intercooler makes zero odds to power, the only caveat to this is that with higher temps, the boost goes up so the parasitics will also rise a little, however, on a dyno it's almost impossible to actually see/measure this (and yes, I have tried a few times).

 

on a turbo, this is not true, as boost is actively controlled, so if the temps go up, the air becomes less dense, and as boost control will limit the absolute boost, you will have less air mass for a given boost, ie, less air = less power.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Thanks for sharing info But the video was only posted to show my power loss on the pit straight it died big time , but I did get good traction out of the last corner

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Just looked at correction tables and it's the AFR which is changing from 62 degrees But there is a massive increase at 71 degrees which maybe the reason my performance drops off at these temps

[Scuffers]

Throwing fuel in is always a good way of loosing power...

Edited by Scuffers, 22 June 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[Steve.i.am]

 

  think about the airpath when the engine in on very light load and the SC by-pass is open.  

So we've seen several data traces now where intake temp increases on smaller throttle opening/light load. And I have thought about the air path when the bypass is open. Struggling to conclude why temp goes up. So with the valve open, the manifold is in vacuum - that's what opened the valve. Here air is drawn in from the charger intake before the compressor directly into the manifold and I assume follows normal path from there - ie through the laminovas. So how is it getting heated to the point it's hotter than compressed air from the charger on WOT?  

easy.   when the by-pass opens, the airflow is though the charger and back round the bypass, thus the air in the system goes through the (HOT) SC several times, unsurprisingly, this get's it quite hot, and all the more because at lot throttle openings, there's not much air to take up this heat

Right I see this now and it makes sense. I had the direction of flow though the bypass valve the wrong way around in my head. Thanks!

[fezzasus]

So the bypass valve is actually a way of reduced boost off throttle rather than avoiding compressing the air?

 

[techieboy]

Not entirely correct, example is the EGR being used as a wideband lambda.   Peter is also adding water injection functionality for v. 3

I'm fully aware of what it can and can't do but you can't do anything with the EGR live. It's great re-purposing of the EGR input/output for logging purposes but of absolutely no use whilst the car is actually driving. Yup and you'll be another 150 down when that's released and you decide you want it and have to send your ECU back to Peter. Do that upgrade twice and you're in the territory of a more flexible standalone.