820 replies to this topic

[Bargi]

Of course not but I'm sure you can make a pretty good estimation as I know how you worry so much about saving weight

[ArticMonkey]

Of course not but I'm sure you can make a pretty good estimation as I know how you worry so much about saving weight

Says the Stavros Flatley lookalike.

[Acidpopstar]

Weight of the pump is approx 1kg. Tank full weighs 5Kg. plastic pipes and nozzles weigh grammes. In mine this weight is right in the middle of the car, not in the boot where it would have been a whole lot easier to fit.

 

How much does a charge cool rad plus water weigh?

[Bargi]

Of course not but I'm sure you can make a pretty good estimation as I know how you worry so much about saving weight

Says the Stavros Flatley lookalike.

Yep, it's why you need the extra torque of the Harrop:P

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Its better to design an intercooler/charge cooler that gives the required performance imho.
 
Too much to go wrong with W/I, that extra weight and complexity combined with the constant filling up and the worry that you will hit empty.
 
Yes it works, mainly used in rallying back in the day to get around not having a big enough intercooler (due to regs).

 
Yes but thats exactly the prob with the SC engine in the VX, bigger rad still does not do that good a job and don't forget bigger charge cooler systems hold more water as well so they are even more weight.
Problem is the manifold and always will be, WI does not care about that.

There is not a chance that Neil's small rad is half as good as the big rad up front

Anglesey track day hot

But neils works well with the WI

This was a harrop car with 350 + hp

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 22 June 2015 - 09:42 PM.

[Acidpopstar]

Not claiming it does. Just saying I do not need it or the weight and problems with cooling the main rad that goes with it.

[Crabash]

Thats my point though Chris, that graph shows even with bigger rad less than ideal temps, you already have it so great it is better than a small rad in the ear, but the WI seems to me to be a much more effective solution for anyone who still feels creeping up to 80 deg is too hot or is still on a small rad. If you are willing to be more daring i'm confident there is a good chunk of power to be made using meth as well, if you have dutch ecu or a standalone. I'm afraid if you don't you can have the cooling but I'm doubtfull you will find a tuner that will optimise for WMI, they worry that you will mess about and blame the map or simply they don't understand it.

The down side is obviously you have to fill the water too, but to people talking of worries over forgetting, we have not changed the map, it will simply go back to how it was. Even if you do change the map a more agressive temp threshhold in the ecu will ensure the car looks after itself. There are outputs from the WMI box that can simply send a voltage or open/close a set of internal contacts for forcing conditions on the ecu, warning lights, buzzers any amount of warnings and failsafes.

When Peter has done some work on the ecu we may have even more options.

 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

👍 I'm in no doubt WI seems to be a great option for anyone who's temps are getting around 65+ degrees I actually feel WI would be better than WMI for the reasons you put above about the car just slipping in to standard form/ on the same map I'm not interested in any extra power if I wanted any extra I could achieve this with pulley swaps which WI would complement even more so 👍 and great work I hope to have something similar on the car soon Is There any other down sides other than weight To the system ?? Would the water do any lasting damage to any of the components in the manifold or in engine chambers etc ?? I also love the comment about keeping the exhaust cooLer but If the water is already in gas form in the manifold has it already lost its ability to cool things ??

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 22 June 2015 - 11:35 PM.

[Crabash]

People who are anti WI will always find some reason it's bad, I have heard them all and gone off to find out for myself, and not just from people who are pro WI.

Put it this way, if you do extreme things extreme things can happen, there is always danger of over doing things, but done correctly there is no reason for concern. Bigger turbo, bolting a SC on, doesn't matter, all can cause probs or expense. A SC at stage 2 is taking the power to the generally accepted limit for the engine in standard form yet lots do it.

I have seen no evidence to convince me there are going to be any issues with things being damaged, like aluminium parts, pistons or parts thereof, although some reports of "steam cleaning" the valves and combustion chambers are greatly exagerated it does seem to help keep them a little cleaner.

It is very similar to driving on a rainy day, cars don't destroy engines when you take them out in the rain.

It gives you a safety margin for det.

It keeps power consistant.

It has the potential to allow more agressive tuning.

 

The downsides are mainly fighting through the miss information and having to fill the water up now and again, road use I would expect 5 litres to last a long time, some reports say they fill the water approx every 5 tanks of petrol, depends on your WI mapping of course.

 

It's not the exhaust that is cooled, it's that the EGT is generally lower in the 1st place.

 

Oh and although it's not needed using water and meth does have a greater cooling capacity than water alone or meth alone (which you would only use if you were in a proper fire suit anyway), at 50% or less mix with water it becomes non flamable.

 

Edited by Crabash, 23 June 2015 - 12:40 AM.

[Crabash]

I do plan doing it to mine too, funds are tight at the min and I'm busy with other stuff.

I plan on using WMI, it is well known to give 40-50bhp on my engine in it's current state of tune with nothing more than a couple of steps up on the timing, no extra boost required.

I spoke to my tuner about it, what he said was, yes it is a band aid and he would use when you are limited by space or components, i.e. a manifold that is beyond it's design limits or you are unable to fit enough cooling capacity in the car.

Looking at my car he said he would normally go for a bigger FMIC but that is not an option, I would have to use the boot space to fit a bigger charge cooler. So he could see how WMI made sense on the vx. However he also said the only system he would actually map for is the aquamist system as it can "talk" to the ecu (meaning the VAG ecu) rather than just supplying voltage to a wastegate solenoid.

[scw02102]

This is great as I have been looking at lowering my stage 2 IAT as its running 60-75C very quickly and I cant afford the CC 

 

So looking at around £580 ish for the kit

 

How long approx to install?

As I'm dumb and my brain is dumber so will need to pay some clever clogs to do it

 

Also I take it the meth cools even more? But most likely not required based on the water tests posted!

[TheHood]

Any issues with limescale build up, or is it taken as a given to use demineralised/distilled water?

[Acidpopstar]

Any issues with limescale build up, or is it taken as a given to use demineralised/distilled water?

 

De-ionised water as you'd stick in your battery. About £3 for 5l from Boyes

[Crabash]

Yea water and meth cools more but results so far show theres no need. Water alone is sinpler, if you want to turn up the power then meth will do what you need.

[Exmantaa]

Somebody should try out E85 in a Harrop build. Liquid intercooling and 105+ octane should brake 400 easy. .

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

I got a bit of information From peter That I thought u would share Regarding the water injection, as long as you are only adding water, it does not affect the calibration, but if you add alcohol things are getting complicated. Also most water injection systems are not very accurate so the AFRs will not be very stable with alcohol. But if you want to get the full advance with injecting water, it is necessary to modify the calibration. What you must do to get the most out the water injection is lean the fuelling down to around 12.5 or even leaner where you will get the maximum power. The extra fuel for cooling the exhaust gases is not necessary anymore because this is now done by the injected water. Also the ignition must be advances a few degrees to compensate for the slower burn rate. Adding water will slow down the burn rate. Adding water will also increase the detonation limit, this means you probably can increase the ignition even more to gain some extra power. The downside of such a calibration is when the water injection system fails or simply runs out of water the calibration is not safe and you will rely on the knock retard system and will get very hot exhaust gases etc. So unless you have a good warning system in place I would advise to simply keep the current calibration.

[Crabash]

Yep pretty much my take on it except meth is much easier to map for with aquamist system. As said before problems come with boost activated systems, it works in a crude way. It is also much cheaper hence most use it and then struggle to map for meth. It's the same on turbos too.

 

And to be fair to me I already said all this.

Edited by Crabash, 23 June 2015 - 10:23 PM.

[Acidpopstar]

Well, after the all the effort me and Crabash put in to resurrecting my car in time for Spa in July and my trip of a life time around Europe including the French Frolic it turns out my body has decided it's not going to happen. This cursed sciatica has left me pretty much confined to my living room floor and I've had to cancel everything. Never mind the potential loss of hundreds of pounds of track bookings - it's the amount of anticipation, planning and hope I've invested into it that hurts even more than my leg.

 

So, what to do? I managed a track day at Hethel before it got too painful and the car was sublime. The geo that Ollie at Phoenix did along with the suspension refresh after crash No. 2 last year makes the car change direction like a gnat. Hethel is a very technical test track and once I'd worked out the layout the car felt so well balanced and alive and I kept up with a well driven V6 Exige so I was really excited about the trip. The amazing WI results only added to the excitement. Anyway, clearly it's not happening now so...

 

One thing that has always bothered me is my lack of a proper bucket seat and harnesses. I'm always clinging on and bracing myself with my knees which is not ideal. So I've just gone and spunked a sh*t load of dosh on 2 of these:

 

 

Tillett B6. I believe I may be the first to fit these to a VX. I've ordered them in carbon/GRP with full pads and all stitching and logos in orange to go with my orange trimmed mats from the group buy and (when I can do the job) my gloss black brake calipers with orange writing. Not quite full Mystery Machine but will hopefully tie it all in quite subtly.

 

The danger of being confined to the floor with a computer and credit card to hand and nothing to think about but the car I can't even get in are becoming very apparent. Although to be fair I'm only spending the money I would have spent on petrol / hotels etc over the summer. Man maths wins again

 

I also have a 1" ARB from the group buy to fit and am also in for the ATS DTC group buy.

 

NO MORE GROUP BUYS

[ArticMonkey]

Hope you get well soon mate. I'll might need your hand bump staring my car again one day. If you don't mind me asking, what's the cost if these seats? Also,being the first to try them, will they fit on your standard runners ok or will you need to have a crack at making your own?

[Acidpopstar]

I believe they will fit on standard runners with the EBF1 mounts that Tillett recommended.

 

They are not cheap, I just paid £1780 for the pair including the mounts from GSM Sports Seats who seem to be very slightly cheaper than others. You can get them quite a bit cheaper if you go for plain GRP and no pads but I tried the seat at the autosport show at the NEC earlier this year and I needed the pads to fit in it properly. Plus if I'm doing this I may as well go for the carbon fronts and do it proper.