157 replies to this topic

[furtive]

You volunteering?

[mbes2]

I check my front ones all the time 

 

 

 

 

[Spitfire Engineering]

 

 

 

 

Spitfire. That's what's snapped.

  These ones don't snap though, this is the M12 conversion we have been doing for some time now.

What's involved to adapt too that? M12 bearing, spacers and machine the hub to M12?

 

 

 

Yes, but then you need new rods as well.

 

The Spifire kit has a hybrid bearing which will take an M12 or an M10.

 

 

Is there enough 'meat' in the hub to machine out to m12. I'm not convinced. 

regular maintenance for what is a fatigue problem is the way to deal with it in my view. 

 

 

 

Well that is a little uninformed if I may politely say so, on both counts and as your post casts doubt on something we do then it's needs an response.

 

Firstly the upright used for both the recessed and the tapered upright is the SAME CASTING, ironically the only difference is the actual machining of the toe link fastener!

As the hole for the tapered upright runs from 12mm to 18mm without any issues, to suggest there is not enough meat left on a maching operation that leaves far more in place than the tapered upright is clearly unfounded.

 

Secondly this is not a simple fatigue failure, it is a design issue. The M10 8.8 works at the at the limit in this application and needs a solution.

there is no guarantee that regular maintenance would stop this failure, there is no guarantee it would not fail 5 mins later as the problem is not restrained to the fasterer itself. 

 

[JG]

 

 

 

 

 

Spitfire. That's what's snapped.

  These ones don't snap though, this is the M12 conversion we have been doing for some time now.

What's involved to adapt too that? M12 bearing, spacers and machine the hub to M12?

 

 

 

Yes, but then you need new rods as well.

 

The Spifire kit has a hybrid bearing which will take an M12 or an M10.

 

 

Is there enough 'meat' in the hub to machine out to m12. I'm not convinced. 

regular maintenance for what is a fatigue problem is the way to deal with it in my view. 

 

 

 

Well that is a little uninformed if I may politely say so, on both counts and as your post casts doubt on something we do then it's needs an response.

 

Firstly the upright used for both the recessed and the tapered upright is the SAME CASTING, ironically the only difference is the actual machining of the toe link fastener!

As the hole for the tapered upright runs from 12mm to 18mm without any issues, to suggest there is not enough meat left on a maching operation that leaves far more in place than the tapered upright is clearly unfounded.

 

Secondly this is not a simple fatigue failure, it is a design issue. The M10 8.8 works at the at the limit in this application and needs a solution.

there is no guarantee that regular maintenance would stop this failure, there is no guarantee it would not fail 5 mins later as the problem is not restrained to the fasterer itself. 

 

 

[Spitfire Engineering]

by the way, for MOST of you, there is no need to be "scared".... just get someone who knows WTF they are doing to have a little peek under there as a start.

 

Certainly for road cars there is no need to keep the car garaged from now on, for regular track cars you will need to be a little more careful as the early signs of failure may not be visible.

 

For example someone on this or the associated SELOC forum mentioned they had to keep tightening the bolt. Thats not acceptable and needs stripping down before any further use but the chances are this would not be visible at all. You are only going to discover issues like this by physically checking with reliable tooling and I mean a torque wrench of course.

 

Part of the recent failure is evident from the images posted on this forum BTW but that is between the owner and supplier.

 

If you are concerned then contact your relatve supplier.

 

As a strict rule always check the major suspension bolts for torque before and after a trackday, if they do not look right, there is probably something wrong, if they have lost torque there is something wrong.

 

If you do not have confidence in the car you are unlikely to enjoy a trackday in it.

 

Edited by Spitfire Engineering, 24 April 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[Acidpopstar]

Can anyone recommend a torque wrench?

 

[Spitfire Engineering]

Can anyone recommend a torque wrench?

 

Halfords pro range

 

Very good value as the quality and accuracy is one of the best at middle market prices. They won the 1st place in several "Which" type tests

 

http://www.halfords....wrench-40-200nm

 

[anz3001]

Interesting again.....

 

For the torque wrench, if only used for checking suspension bolts etc I'd go 3/8" drive personally, we predominentaly use Norbar

[dylan390]

Can anyone recommend a torque wrench?

 

If you want a DIY torque wrench that is reliable and will not go out of calibration then a 'beam bending' type wrench is best, where the bending of the lever causes a needle (not in bending) to register on a scale. Its not the most flash of devices, but it is the most reliable as it relies on physics. Dont forget also though that it is not hard to calibrate a torque wrench using a known weight and a rule® (torque moment = force x distance) 

 

My comment on the torque issue, and to echo Spitfire, is that torque on a bolt doesnt drop off for no reason - a drop in torque indicates either a stretching or possible yield of one of the components (I would suggest bolt), wear in the system (seized bearing rotating for instance).

 

I would stretch to saying that the nut loosening is almost impossible in this instance unless something else is very wrong.

 

In this sort of system (high end loadings on bolts and small contact areas) one should not expect 'settling'. 

 

My last point in relation to supplier duty to support their product is that I feel there is a strong implication from EP that the kit is superior to the cars standard setup, and they need to be a little careful about how they deal with this. I suspect they will respond maturely and address the issues on an individual basis, but bear in mind any changes in their kit is by definition an admission of fault, so I suspect no change. I think the tact they will take is much the same as for something like a mountain bike, where the supplier is unlikely to guarantee the product in a 'snap-on tools' fashion (ie. we will replace ANY failure) because it is hard for them anticipate the loadings a given track car will see... don't forget kerbs come in many flavours, and if one were to hit a queens highway kerb at full pelt then something has to give. 

 

This is a hobby we all chose, and to push your car just that little bit beyond the manufacturers original intent cannot come without onus on the driver... so maybe in this exercise we might all learn a little! - Its sad it has to be at one of the members costs.

 

The last thing to remember is these are not Ford Foci, and the development of the cars will not have ensured the control of every reserve factor down to a consistent level, what with parts shared with road cars of twice the weight for example, so there will be definition be some over-specified areas, and some with Reserves more affected by ageing componentry or poor maintenance.

[Acidpopstar]

 

Can anyone recommend a torque wrench?

 

Halfords pro range

 

Very good value as the quality and accuracy is one of the best at middle market prices. They won the 1st place in several "Which" type tests

 

http://www.halfords....wrench-40-200nm

 

 

 

Cheers for that. This thread and my own toe link failure has scared me into being much more careful before I venture on track again.

[dylan390]

 

It was a elise parts kit so I don't know if 8.8 is their standard or if these were changed at some point.

 

How would you put washers between the joint and spacer as the spacer has a shoulder that sits inside the bearing?

 

The fitted collets is a Spitfire design and it adds to the overall stiffness of the component chain.

 

 

I would debate that as its common place in F1 suspension design to sleeve fit a spherical bearing, but I suspect if we got the patent attourneys involved everyone would get bored and go for beer!

[Captain Vimes]

So. If the self loosening nuts are caused by the 8.8 bolt stretching and the standard toe links are 10.9. It makes sense to upgrade to the 10.9 bolts to reduce the chance of a loose bolts and failure? Anyone had experience with the 10.9 bolts coming loose or failing?

[chris_uk]

[QoY]

It is clear now that my toe link failure was entirley my own fault. The ball joints are seized SOLID so it was always going to happen.

 

So please do not confuse my failure with any others. My car was stood outside for 3 years before I bought it and you can see the state of my ball joints compared to the good ones EBO100 loaned me.

 

I can't believe I got round Spa with these but it was wet and I was on T1rs.

 

Check your ball joints......oooh er missus!!

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[mbes2]

When mine went pop

 

[Spitfire Engineering]

 

 

It was a elise parts kit so I don't know if 8.8 is their standard or if these were changed at some point.

 

How would you put washers between the joint and spacer as the spacer has a shoulder that sits inside the bearing?

 

The fitted collets is a Spitfire design and it adds to the overall stiffness of the component chain.

 

 

I would debate that as its common place in F1 suspension design to sleeve fit a spherical bearing, but I suspect if we got the patent attourneys involved everyone would get bored and go for beer!

 

I suspect it goes back much further, any bearing or any other tube form that does not fit the required component will have a sleeve, the brass bearing industry have it pretty well covered. I was refering to the previous post and the comments about the positioning of the shims having changed as the collets fitted into the bearings so could not take a lower shim position.

apologies if it sounded like the entire sleeving solution was my idea.

I'm really not that old!

 

 

 

 

[Gedi]

Solution

 

 

So where can you buy these conversion parts from?

[Spitfire Engineering]

If you could message me on here please, we are just looking at options. 

We do not normally sell spares for other kits but clearly this is a special case causing a lot of issues for several owners.

 

If you have a Spitfire kit already please contact us if you have any concerns. M12 conversions are available already.

 

Thanks

Gaz

[Sutol]

Hi Mark, I have got in the habit of giving the toe links a good pull around with the car on the ground and jacked up just to make sure everything feels right and secure. Haven't done any checks with a torque wrench, so nothing scientific just gives me peace of mind. Glad you're OK and with your skills I'm sure the car will be soon too. ETA/ just read page 6 and now will also check with t/wrench

Edited by Sutol, 24 April 2015 - 10:19 PM.

[chris_uk]

i think i might have a rear drivers light here, might need a refurb, but just let me know.