706 replies to this topic

[techieboy]

Somehow managed to miss this update last week but great work chaps, glad you've managed to solve most of the issues and fingers crossed on the oil front.

 

 

How it left:

 

 

 

Did you do the mapping yourself Matt? Are you happier with the OBDTuner adjustability in it's current guise (in the absence of the "pro" version), now? Fancy tackling mine on the dyno in the New Year (3" and no-cat in the way already) as trying to do it on the road properly pisses me off? 

[Matthew Bentley Racing Ltd]

Somehow managed to miss this update last week but great work chaps, glad you've managed to solve most of the issues and fingers crossed on the oil front.
 
 

How it left:
 
 

 
Did you do the mapping yourself Matt? Are you happier with the OBDTuner adjustability in it's current guise (in the absence of the "pro" version), now? Fancy tackling mine on the dyno in the New Year (3" and no-cat in the way already) as trying to do it on the road properly pisses me off? 

Yes I did it. Being honest no I don't like it at the moment if I'm honest. Mapping an engine that is specced for 300bhp and only asking for 200 gives lots of margin if things aren't quite right.

Mapping and asking that engine for everything possible, peak torque and power, where temps are high leaves much less margin for error. So you have to be confident what you are asking for is being done so that as you approach the limit you are in control. Currently haven't mapped one yet where I feel in control. And when it's not your engine and there is reasonable money at stake that isn't a nice place to be.

If I could have knock control, lambda control and graphing it would be better.

I only did bills, rays and martins all to help them out as they were all running badly.

If I'm honest I think for most Courtney's is good enough. If you are pushing the boundaries or have something different, (saab etc) then standalone is the way at the moment.

Pro version could be good.

Happy to help you with mapping if you need Matt but MBR doesn't support it.

[Nev]

 

...Mapping and asking that engine for everything possible, peak torque and power, where temps are high leaves much less margin for error...

 

 

This is the nub of the matter for sure. It must be worrying for tuners who are asked to deliver max everything, in the knowledge that a single component (mechanical or sensor) going out of designed spec/tollerance could cause very serious damage, which most numpty owners then blame the tuner for !  

[fiveoclock]

The tuner having the knowledge that the "numpty" owner doesnt should say no then and if he doesnt then he should take the blame.

[Matthew Bentley Racing Ltd]

The tuner having the knowledge that the "numpty" owner doesnt should say no then and if he doesnt then he should take the blame.

Which is why Mbr doesn't support it. I personally have helped a couple of people out but that is separate.

[techieboy]

If I'm honest I think for most Courtney's is good enough.

If I'm honest, I think it was more than good enough for me too and in retrospect, shouldn't have bothered changing. But then the same can be said for lots of the things I've done on this car.  

Happy to help you with mapping if you need Matt but MBR doesn't support it.

Understood and more than happy on that basis. Much better chance of the dyno place allowing you on there, instead of me rocking up and sticking the front wheels on the dyno and scratching my chin. What's their noise limit like?

[Kieran McC]

Don't CS get the car owners to sign a disclaimer of some sort ? Not that I have ever signed one.

[The Batman]

I've never signed one.

[Bargi]

Don't CS get the car owners to sign a disclaimer of some sort ? Not that I have ever signed one.

Yes, part of it says you must turn up at 8am but they won't work on it until at earliest after lunch. If you use their facilities you must sit and listen to Mark on the front desk the whole time.

[fiveoclock]

 

The tuner having the knowledge that the "numpty" owner doesnt should say no then and if he doesnt then he should take the blame.

Which is why Mbr doesn't support it. I personally have helped a couple of people out but that is separate.

 

If only others were as sensible

[Exmantaa]

 

Yes I did it. Being honest no I don't like it at the moment if I'm honest. Mapping an engine that is specced for 300bhp and only asking for 200 gives lots of margin if things aren't quite right. Mapping and asking that engine for everything possible, peak torque and power, where temps are high leaves much less margin for error. So you have to be confident what you are asking for is being done so that as you approach the limit you are in control. Currently haven't mapped one yet where I feel in control. And when it's not your engine and there is reasonable money at stake that isn't a nice place to be. If I could have knock control, lambda control and graphing it would be better. I only did bills, rays and martins all to help them out as they were all running badly. If I'm honest I think for most Courtney's is good enough. If you are pushing the boundaries or have something different, (saab etc) then standalone is the way at the moment. Pro version could be good. Happy to help you with mapping if you need Matt but MBR doesn't support it.

 

 

 

A bit in defence of OBD-Tuner; it's just a tool and to my knowledge the only decent one available to map tthe Z22SE ecu.  (ps; Courtenay does not do the VX220 mapping; they establish remote -tuning with Klasen Motorsport in Germany...)

But how safe you map the engine is totally up to the tuner; he should decide if the engine hardware is enough up to the task before he starts the mapping process. And for a customer job you dial in safe AFR's and enough ignition retard to stay well clear of the knock limit. And OBD at least gives us the tools to establish that.

 

I'm not experienced with the "live mapping" in OBD and what logging tools are then available in that mode. For AFR feedback you need a (good) wideband plugged in the exhaust (should be standard feature of the rolling road?) and to dial in the ignition you can hear for knock with some headphones while watching the torque. But a (graphic) feedback of f.i. ignition and especially for engine knock sensor retard would be nice... (Pro version??) 

[oakmere]

It feels like everything is getting a bit of a slap in this thread but no one thing is to blame. I think the best option for Martin would have been a new set of pistons and a rebore as he was totally happy with the original setup. He went a different way and with so many changes things sometimes go wrong. Hopefully the main issues are sorted for Martin and he can get on with driving his car 👍.

[Exmantaa]

I don't get this whole Z22SE vs. Saab B207 swap issue, as we're talking about basically the same engine. These have the exact same aluminium crank casing with 86mm bore, only with the B207 having a different stroke crank and factory fitted stronger pistons and rods, good for some ~350ps... (And swapping to a sandcast saab head is already the preferred option for most flowed head builds)

 

For a mild (~300ps) SC goal, there is a lot to say about using the (cheap!) complete factory build B207 bottom end, instead of changing to aftermarket rods & pistons in a Z22SE. Lots to go wrong there too.

I think Martin is/was just very unlucky with his engine, but the same thing could have happened with a (build) Z22SE... 

 

[CocoPops]

It could, but the point being, Martin had an ultra reliable z22se at stage two, 250-260bhp that he should/could have simply dropped in a brand new crated z22se and carried on. He was never after more power, just got carried away with the "Saab is best thing" and "Dutch ecu fixes everything" messages. Ultimately, this whole situation has soured his love of the car, which I hope will be rekindled soon.

[Exmantaa]

I think that reliability was exactly the reason why he decided to drop in a brand new crated B207 block... (Only the head was lifted for some porting work etc.)

 

 

 

[fiveoclock]

I think that reliability was exactly the reason why he decided to drop in a brand new crated B207 block... (Only the head was lifted for some porting work etc.)

 

 

 

He used the Saab engine because he had it in stock on his garage floor and was under the impression it was a straight swap without hardly any other work. Up to Martin to comment but I know he wishes he had done what Lee says above. He just wanted his car back to how it had been for many, many years and over 100 track days. I'm sure in the Spring/Summer after/if he has done half a dozen track days with no incident he will feel ok with the car again........................................Unless he sees a nice Exige beforehand

[vocky]

The reality is the exhaust was going to fail, no matter what engine was under the hood. It probably killed the original engine too ....

[leevx2.2]

Done a oil change on Martins car ,put 6.5 litres in and nothing showing on dip stick . I think this is the problem as any more oil and it will breath it out on track . Have you got his old z22se dipstick Neil or anybody got a vx220 z22se dipstick ?

[smiley]

I use a Z22SE dipstick on my stock B207 engine, which takes about 6.5 liters.

My engineer told me to fill up to the arrowpoint below.

 

But Martin uses the saab dipstick right?

Edited by smiley, 29 December 2015 - 11:26 AM.

[Sutol]

I think that reliability was exactly the reason why he decided to drop in a brand new crated B207 block... (Only the head was lifted for some porting work etc.)      

He used the Saab engine because he had it in stock on his garage floor and was under the impression it was a straight swap without hardly any other work. Up to Martin to comment but I know he wishes he had done what Lee says above. He just wanted his car back to how it had been for many, many years and over 100 track days. I'm sure in the Spring/Summer after/if he has done half a dozen track days with no incident he will feel ok with the car again........................................Unless he sees a nice Exige beforehand

Exactly right Mark. Martin and I both bought the Saab lump in the group buy as standbys for when our z22se let go. At £700 albeit with things like triggers wheels, obdtuner software etc to source, it seemed like a reasonable proposition. You're also getting a stronger revvier engine. I just think that Martin has been dead unlucky, the reasons for which will hopefully come out eventually. I don't think for one moment that it's the engines fault and that it has to do with an underlying problem while the Z22se was still in the car. Having bits of piston going through the exhaust system wouldn't have helped!

Edited by Sutol, 29 December 2015 - 11:26 AM.