306 replies to this topic

[Scuffers]

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]"The way I see it, the ARB needs to be matched to the springs. At present it's too stiff for my springs, which isn't quite what scuffers said."[/color]

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]Having tried this myself I don't agree with Scuffers either, there are a lot of quick people out there that don't agree as well.[/color]

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]ARB full stiff is not the solution for all setups... IMO[/color]

what's how 'fast' I am got to do with the subject?

 

you clearly don't have a clue, and are now just dropping names you think mean something into the discussion.

 

if you actually want to learn something, listen to what's being said, and then try and relate that to how suspension works, not just parrot crap you have managed to get some random person to say.

 

I have said this before, but my VX example is Gearys VX, it;s a std NA car with quantums and 1" arb, everybody who has driven this has commented on:

 

1) how nice it rides (considering the spring rates)

2) how well it handles on std road tyres without understeer/oversteer etc.

 

I suggest you actually speak to people that have driven it (like Max/Lee/Graham/etc etc) and ask them if they think it's 1" ARB at full still causes understeer.

[Bargi]

1 inch ARB would be best bang for buck upgrade and made huge difference and no massive understeer. Personally I think some peoples understeer is actually putting down the power too early through the apex. Doesn't take to much to wash out the front end of these cars.

Edited by Bargi, 16 October 2015 - 04:31 PM.

[Captain Vimes]

Suffers - what are the spring rates on Geary's NA?

[PaulCP]

Personally I think some peoples understeer is actually putting down the power too early through the apex. Doesn't take to much to wash out the front end of these cars.

or turning in too early

[Acidpopstar]

Personally I think some peoples understeer is actually putting down the power too early through the apex. Doesn't take to much to wash out the front end of these cars.

This. Or chucking it in to a corner too quickly and expecting miracles.

[MAXR]

Scuffers

 

[color=#808080;][font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"]"I suggest you actually speak to people that have driven it (like Max/Lee/Graham/etc etc) and ask them if they think it's 1" ARB at full still causes understeer."[/color][/font]

 

Geary's NA is really, really impressive. It takes just few minutes for you wonder why on earth you bothered adding more power, it just doesn't get much better. The car does not understeer & is as much fun to drive as any VX I have driven. I think everyone should drive it to appreciate how a track car should handle.   

[Matthew Bentley Racing Ltd]

Suffers - what are the spring rates on Geary's NA?

 

500/650lb

[Captain Vimes]

Personally I think some peoples understeer is actually putting down the power too early through the apex. Doesn't take to much to wash out the front end of these cars.

This. Or chucking it in to a corner too quickly and expecting miracles.

The video I posted shows that given the same car/driver/tyres the 1" ARB increased understeer at the apex (ignore turn in under steer, this is constant throttle at the apex) - it changed the balance towards understeer, which is exactly what the text book says it should do. It can be driven around but part of the benefit of a MR setup is that you can get on the power early. Watch some of mark's(five O clock) race videos and see how he takes metres out of the fwd opposition by getting on the power early.

Edited by Captain Vimes, 16 October 2015 - 06:11 PM.

[Captain Vimes]

Suffers - what are the spring rates on Geary's NA?

  500/650lb

Thanks Matt. Oh and I didn't mean to write Suffers.. The missing c was accidental.. Honestly. Anyway, what we can conclude from Geary's NA is that a 1" ARB works really well when paired with a set of quantum dampers running high spring rates. It doesn't confirm that a 1" ARB will always improve handling with no negative consequences.

[Captain Vimes]

Scuffers
 
[color=#808080;][font="helvetica;"]"I suggest you actually speak to people that have driven it (like Max/Lee/Graham/etc etc) and ask them if they think it's 1" ARB at full still causes understeer."[/color][/font]
 
Geary's NA is really, really impressive. It takes just few minutes for you wonder why on earth you bothered adding more power, it just doesn't get much better. The car does not understeer & is as much fun to drive as any VX I have driven. I think everyone should drive it to appreciate how a track car should handle.   

I had the pleasure to be at Croft on the same day that Scuffers was in Geary's NA while I was also still NA and running a standard ARB with my nitrons.
This was my first ever visit to Croft on some tired tyres... Notice the lack of understeer in my car - steering wheel position at the apex is similar in both cars (ignore the first corner where I got it wrong..).

I'm not trying to compare driving, just pointing out that my current arb and dampers/springs aren't working together as well as they did - I'm sure with higher spring rates the ARB will make much more sense but again I'm not convinced it has no negative consequences (unless you have springs/dampers to match it).

https://youtu.be/gCywXYn8dD4

Edit: struggling with the video link on my phone...

Edited by Captain Vimes, 16 October 2015 - 06:26 PM.

[Matthew Bentley Racing Ltd]

 

 

Suffers - what are the spring rates on Geary's NA?

  500/650lb

Thanks Matt. Oh and I didn't mean to write Suffers.. The missing c was accidental.. Honestly. Anyway, what we can conclude from Geary's NA is that a 1" ARB works really well when paired with a set of quantum dampers running high spring rates. It doesn't confirm that a 1" ARB will always improve handling with no negative consequences.

 

 

I agree that if the car setup is 'correct' and you dont have much front end grip that just adding a stiffer roll bar will reduce grip further. However it shouldn't with the 'right' setup.

 

............imo...........

[Scuffers]

I would argue most of the understated people experience is due to poor front bumpsteer brought on by adventurous ride heights.

[Aerodynamic]

Still. If a big roll bar works with Harder springs is it then even needed? A roll bar is mostly a comfort thing. Scuffers, do you have your in soft or hard? I have 425 springs in front and 550 in the rear will a 1" ARB work with this?

[909]

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]"The way I see it, the ARB needs to be matched to the springs. At present it's too stiff for my springs, which isn't quite what scuffers said."[/color]

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]Having tried this myself I don't agree with Scuffers either, there are a lot of quick people out there that don't agree as well.[/color]

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]ARB full stiff is not the solution for all setups... IMO[/color]

what's how 'fast' I am got to do with the subject?

 

you clearly don't have a clue, and are now just dropping names you think mean something into the discussion.

 

if you actually want to learn something, listen to what's being said, and then try and relate that to how suspension works, not just parrot crap you have managed to get some random person to say.

 

I have said this before, but my VX example is Gearys VX, it;s a std NA car with quantums and 1" arb, everybody who has driven this has commented on:

 

1) how nice it rides (considering the spring rates)

2) how well it handles on std road tyres without understeer/oversteer etc.

 

I suggest you actually speak to people that have driven it (like Max/Lee/Graham/etc etc) and ask them if they think it's 1" ARB at full still causes understeer.

 

 

Scuffers, 

 

Perhaps you could change your aggressive manner then you would perhaps learn something.

 

It's obvious to me from what you write that it is you who have little knowledge of what you speak about and use your aggressive manner to convince people otherwise.  Not working for me sorry.

 

Cheers.

[Scuffers]

Lol! Bite me!

[jules_s]

Scuffers,    Perhaps you could change your aggressive manner then you would perhaps learn something.   It's obvious to me from what you write that it is you who have little knowledge of what you speak about and use your aggressive manner to convince people otherwise.  Not working for me sorry.   Cheers.

Flol.......you might want to google Scuffers before firing that broadside  

[Exmantaa]

I would argue most of the understated people experience is due to poor front bumpsteer brought on by adventurous ride heights.

 

Now THAT is an interesting subject...

 

The "necessary/wanted/optimal" front bumpsteer-curve of a Lotus Elise type chassis seems a closeguarded secret, but the "right curve" is probably very influenced by the use of the car and tyres.

The rear curve is at least documented (well, for an S1 I believe that graph is), but also there I can imagine that this "car-handling-tweak", which is designed to work with (OEM) suspension movement, is influenced by the spring poundage. Or better said; influenced by how much suspension travel you get from a certain cornering load...

 

So with "track" springs (= less suspension movement...) then i.m.o you should create a more aggressive bumpsteercurve then OEM, so you still get the same Lotus designed change in wheel angle at that cornering load, but with the lesser suspension travel of your heavy springs.

 

But I would really like to learn where and what I should aim for with a road/track VX,,,

[MAXR]

I would argue most of the understated people experience is due to poor front bumpsteer brought on by adventurous ride heights.

 

 

From my modest experience, I think you're spot on Simon! 

[Scuffers]

people need to consider what the start point for the chassis was.

 

S1 Elise, with 15" fronts (~580mm OD tyres) and a 160mm ride height.

 

VX has 17" fronts (~624mm OD tyres), offset uprights (compared to S1), and lower than 160mm ride heights.

 

not hard to see where the issue creeps in...

[Dave E]

650/800 on quantum one ways (blacks) plus 1" arb on stiffest setting and bumpsteer arms from EP with 100/115 ride height for me and yes I know that's far too low. Yes I can get understeer but only when I'm driving like a muppet, admittedly that's a lot of the time, but when I decide to concentrate the car is very neutral and I have no problem changing the balance by how I drive.