306 replies to this topic

[Firthy]

I agree, you need the softest springs possible for the car.

 

Hi Matt,

 

Its Elliot, its not excessive roll just a little sorry I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not?

 

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[Captain Vimes]

Some great info here! Firthy, looking back at the pictures from the national, you're car does look well controlled in the corners as do most of the others that have high spring rates. Interesting that you still have the understeer though. Max/size10/zoobeef - do you get understeer with your setup's or is the car well balanced? Matt - any news from nitron on how far I can push the street series?

Edited by Captain Vimes, 09 October 2015 - 11:07 AM.

[Firthy]

Some great info here! Firthy, looking back at the pictures from the national, you're car does look well controlled in the corners as does most of the others that have high spring rates. Interesting that you still have the understeer though. Max/size10/zoobeef - do you get understeer with your setup's or is the car well balanced? Matt - any news from nitron on how far I can push the street series?

 

Hi Captain,

 

I wish I knew more tbh, one thing I like about leaving my car car at 160bhp or whatever it is... Is that I can compare myself to an elise trophy car & focus on the setup rather than just sticking more power in.

 

The fastest lap at Snett in similar conditions by a 111R toyota is a 2.13.5, I believe I have less bhp than these cars but more torque so a good comparison. Although Im 5mph ish down on the back straight. (not sure what that means time wise)

 

As you know I'm doing a 2.16.4 (this is mid/end pack quali) best theoretical was 2.15.6 so I'm around 2 seconds off the pace. I haven't tried tweaking the car damper settings or tyre pressures yet so I hope to find time. I obviously need to work on my driving as well.

 

The trouble is with most of the others cars are we have nothing to compare them against lap wise, as I don't believe any of the other guys are data logging. 

 

Hopefully the tweaks will sort the balance

 

I hope to go to a circuit with the BOT boys to fine tweek the geo, we know its not far off.

Edited by Firthy, 09 October 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[SteveA]

 

This is the reason I bought an MSA sealed current race car.

[Firthy]

 

Some great info here! Firthy, looking back at the pictures from the national, you're car does look well controlled in the corners as does most of the others that have high spring rates. Interesting that you still have the understeer though. Max/size10/zoobeef - do you get understeer with your setup's or is the car well balanced? Matt - any news from nitron on how far I can push the street series?

 

Hi Captain,

 

I wish I knew more tbh, one thing I like about leaving my car car at 160bhp or whatever it is... Is that I can compare myself to an elise trophy car & focus on the setup rather than just sticking more power in.

 

The fastest lap at Snett in similar conditions by a 111R toyota is a 2.13.5, I believe I have less bhp than these cars but more torque so a good comparison. Although Im 5mph ish down on the back straight. (not sure what that means time wise)

 

As you know I'm doing a 2.16.4 (this is mid/end pack quali) best theoretical was 2.15.6 so I'm around 2 seconds off the pace. I haven't tried tweaking the car damper settings or tyre pressures yet so I hope to find time. I obviously need to work on my driving as well.

 

The trouble is with most of the others cars are we have nothing to compare them against lap wise, as I don't believe any of the other guys are data logging. 

 

Hopefully the tweaks will sort the balance

 

I hope to go to a circuit with the BOT boys to fine tweek the geo, we know its not far off.

 

 

i should add Randy said he didn't think there was anything major to change such as spring rates other than tweaking..

 

As an interesting comparison (lets not forget our cars are very different to k powered S1's and S2's as loads more weight in the rear....) Rob Boston who was proper handy in elise trophy (won everything) used to run 3/4 anti roll bar full stiff and 500lp front 600lp rear. No one can say that boys wasn't quick!

Edited by Firthy, 09 October 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[siztenboots]

the 1" arb will make the biggest difference , wish I had done it years earlier

[Firthy]

the 1" arb will make the biggest difference , wish I had done it years earlier

 

I have a 1 inch also had a 3/4 before that, I think it helps your car more steve as you have a lot more weight in the ass. 

 

When you say difference is this butt feel or lap time? 

 

Edited by Firthy, 09 October 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[siztenboots]

lap time and feel. my only negative mod was quick rack , but thats more of a road issue.

[Firthy]

lap time and feel. my only negative mod was quick rack , but thats more of a road issue.

 

Makes sense Steve, you've always had fairly decent spring rates on your Nitrons in the million years you've owned and tracked it!!!

 

So I guess arb would make the biggest difference to you.

 

Yeah no idea why you would want a faster rack tbh

Edited by Firthy, 09 October 2015 - 12:13 PM.

[Matthew Bentley Racing Ltd]

No I wasn't being sarcastic. You do want the softest spring possible, but who defines what a 'soft' or 'hard' spring it. The cars were built as road cars, on narrow road tyres.

 

We now use them on the track with big wide sticky tyres with different suspension. 

 

Often I find people end up winding the dampers 'stiffer' to stop a certain unwanted characteristic. But going 'stiffer' only delays the inevitable. If the car is undersprung it will fall over, you just delay when that happens in the corner. And while doing that comprise grip else where. Ultimately you have to hold the car up with the springs. 

 

And as above, who says an 800lb spring is 'hard' or not. I just specced 950lbs on a VX220 race car abroad and to give you an idea, Simon ran Jamies TA Exige on 1600lb rear springs!

 

Good point made, ask Max, Lee, Mark, Stuart, Dave E, Paul Coveney, Paul Cooper etc etc if they struggle with understeer. 

 

I wouldn't always quote winning cars as the benchmark, often you can, but sometimes in racing all is not what it seems on the surface. 

 

Better to go with proven info from comparable cars.

 

All just my opinion.........

[Zoobeef]

No understeer at all in mine.

[Matthew Bentley Racing Ltd]

What spring rates roll bar setting you on Mark?

 

What lap time did you do at the national?

[Firthy]

No understeer at all in mine.

Are you guys on Avons ZZR's as they are definitely more sensitive being a proper race tyre than say Federals or R888's

Edited by Firthy, 09 October 2015 - 12:36 PM.

[Matthew Bentley Racing Ltd]

888 is a race tyre

[The Batman]

I'm on 888s.

[Firthy]

888 is a race tyre

 

True but having run them, I would say Avons are more sensative to tyre pressure building up heat to generate grip etc.

 

R888 switches on after half a lap and goes down hill from there, on my car and in my data anyway. 

 

I find as the sidewall is soft so they aren't very progressive, as the side wall tucks under and then releases causing a snap.

 

Avon zzr has a proper sidewall so I considered it more of a race tyre

Edited by Firthy, 09 October 2015 - 12:47 PM.

[Aerodynamic]

I´m all oversteer.

 

Br, Per

Edited by Aerodynamic, 09 October 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[Zoobeef]

What spring rates roll bar setting you on Mark?   What lap time did you do at the national?

I have front 600 with 150 helper, Rear 725 with 250 helper. 1 inch anti roll bar on the stiffest and I think the quantoms are 12 clicks from hard iirc. My laptime at the national were actually pretty sh*t, My driving has gone backwards his year after my toe link incident and not being in the car all year. So my confidence going into the corners had suffered which at Snett hurt me alot in the straights being NA So more time back on track just driving it is needed. Hopefully I can do a few days between now and December then get myself under the 57 second mark at Brands on the 12th Dec. I think my best recorded was 2.23 and change. Although I didn't actually end up doing that many sessions, I talk too much :/

[The Batman]

I talk too much aswell Oh and which days you doing before 12th?

[Firthy]

No I wasn't being sarcastic. You do want the softest spring possible, but who defines what a 'soft' or 'hard' spring it. The cars were built as road cars, on narrow road tyres.   We now use them on the track with big wide sticky tyres with different suspension.    Often I find people end up winding the dampers 'stiffer' to stop a certain unwanted characteristic. But going 'stiffer' only delays the inevitable. If the car is undersprung it will fall over, you just delay when that happens in the corner. And while doing that comprise grip else where. Ultimately you have to hold the car up with the springs.    And as above, who says an 800lb spring is 'hard' or not. I just specced 950lbs on a VX220 race car abroad and to give you an idea, Simon ran Jamies TA Exige on 1600lb rear springs!   Good point made, ask Max, Lee, Mark, Stuart, Dave E, Paul Coveney, Paul Cooper etc etc if they struggle with understeer.    I wouldn't always quote winning cars as the benchmark, often you can, but sometimes in racing all is not what it seems on the surface.    Better to go with proven info from comparable cars.   All just my opinion.........

Totally agree and I am sure your right Matt but how are they proven? Max, Lee, Mark, Stuart, Dave E, Paul Coveney, Paul Cooper are just a list of names to me there is no evidence... I could quote Ben Simon james and Jenny but without a lap time it means absolutely nothing. On a side note thanks for all your advice, and I'm sure we will get a lap time soon

Edited by Firthy, 09 October 2015 - 04:47 PM.