80 replies to this topic

[Doctor Ed]

Hi guys,

 

am new to the vx220, and have a rather significant rebuild of a stripped bare chassis sitting in my front yard.

 

presently things are an open book. suspension rebuild is rather straight forward. the engine, however, is pretty much fair game.

 

Now something i was planning for another project was an audi 1.8T twincharger for about 400hp. i considered putting this in the vx, but im starting to think that motor belongs somewhere else. the idea, however, of twincharging a z20let, or a saab has been pecking away at the back of my head, but seeing as i dont know dick about these motors, i figured it was time to to dive in with my first post here, and see what you chaps might be able to chip in. excuse me if im ask some stuff that has been covered. I have read/searched this site a LOT, but will still have missed bits, some is confusing to a noob, and Ive aslo probably forgotten stuff that you guys think is pretty kindergarten grade knowledge, please bare with me!

 

so...

 

ive got a vx220 with a z20let turbo donk, standard gearbox etc, and want 340-360hp

- best advice i can see is that the z20let isnt happy going over 280-300 without a bottom end build, so if spending money, should it be spent on this block, or something else?

 

now, if i start looking at saab motors, for eg the b207, these are basically the same (ish) as the z22se, and bolt straight up to the gearbox? are the z20let and z22se the same in regards to gearbox mounts/engine mounts etc? ie is a b207 <--> z20let swap a piece of cake as far as bolting stuff up is concerned?

 

now i start getting confused... the b234... is/is not the same family as the b207? does it "bolt up" to the gearbox? engine mounts? 

 

reason im getting picky regarding mounts... getting home-made structural bits like engine mounts, or new custom driveshafts for some gearbox swap, passed through certification here in germany is difficult to say the least. engine component fabrication, no dramas, so manifold, pipework etc, thats a no brainer.

 

so essentially, whats considered "best case scenario" for a true bolt-in motor that will see 340-360hp? 

 

 

ill happily get into the twincharger stuff in a bit, but dont want to muddy the waters too early... i need to get my headaround the feasibility of the basic building blocks (excuse the pun)

 

Cheers

Ed

Edited by ed.oates, 17 December 2015 - 10:37 AM.

[vocky]

the B207 does indeed use the same engine mounts and gearbox as the z22se, so bolts straight in. It does need some modifications to various ancillaries, but if you are going to have a turbo then many are not required.

 

The B234 is a very, very old and extremely heavy engine, which simply does not suit the characteristics of a light vx220.

 

The z20let and z22se engines are both highly tunable, but not exactly cheap to tune.

[stu8v]

the B207 does indeed use the same engine mounts and gearbox as the z22se, so bolts straight in. It does need some modifications to various ancillaries, but if you are going to have a turbo then many are not required.

 

The B234 is a very, very old and extremely heavy engine, which simply does not suit the characteristics of a light vx220.

 

The z20let and z22se engines are both highly tunable, but not exactly cheap to tune.

 

But you dont have to open the engine to make it 400bhp worthy, I guess its the extra weight, that gives the strength.

Edited by stu8v, 17 December 2015 - 11:16 AM.

[Exmantaa]

Ehhh, you're in Germany I see, so that means TÜV approval??

So I assume that big engine modifications (like install a Supercharger on an NA engine) and especially complete engine swaps (Saab) will be a problem? (You have a Turbo Speedster chassis with the Z20LET?

 

Z20LET (cast iron block) has different gearboxpattern then the aluminium Z22SE (or Saab B207) engines so they require the correct F23 gearbox. The LET has a lot of turbo tuning potential in Germany. (And some with TUV approval for the Speedster.)

The older Saab engines like the B235 etc.  share this same gearbox pattern and tend to be bullet proof build.

 

Z22SE... Not so much, but DBilas and Hitec offer TUV approved Turbo and Supercharger conversions. (The Saab B207 is basically a 2 liter Z22SE engine) Can be build to high HP (see US dragcars) and also quite easy to build a twin charge (supercharger + Turbo) engine, but for TUV you will be on your own...

 

(PS; You did not happen to buy a red Speedster chassis recently? )

[Doctor Ed]

Nah, not the red one (French papers?) I got an original German LHD car, with Papers and current TÜV until aug 2017 That's about all I got though, the thing is stripped bare. Correct re German TÜV being a right PITA, but done properly, you can certainly get some stuff through. For example, motor swap without self made engine mounts, all running OEM accs and importantly OEM ecu, as long as you stay with the same or better euronorm emissions, is doable. "Tuning" turbo upgrades etc etc requires a certain amount of caution, money, and blind eye. But is doable. Not everything needs to have a certificate at purchase, DIY turbo work etc can get passed if done well. Germans are generally scared of it though, hence the "stage" off the shelf mod culture. The chassis I got was originally NA, and I plan on swapping the complete guts of a turbo into it (literally everything). This *should* pass without too much drama. Twincharge from there

[Doctor Ed]

So considering I'd be starting with a z20let based setup, basically I'm stuck working with that engine unless I go swapping gearboxes to suit the b207 etc? That said, there's Nothing inherently wrong with me sticking with the z20let, I just thought if I'm going to have to open the engine, would it be worth doing it to another engine instead from the get go. For simplicities sake, it would appear I'm better just sticking with the z20let though. Interesting question... Would the sc intake manifold for the z22se fit the z20let head??

[vocky]

the only part from a z20let which fits the z22se SC is the TMAP sensor, the cylinder heads flow in different directions - z20let exhaust near bulkhead, z22se exhaust near subframe

[Exmantaa]

If you really want to twin charge (a Turbo + SC I understand with that), than the Z22SE or B207 is maybe easier, as there is an GM bolt-on SC set-up for that available. Turbo to the exhaust (also a lot of kits available) and your're up for huge gobs of power. (Been done in the US in an Atom and 700HP springs to mind...)

 

But mapping that will be a huge effort and TUV approval a major headache. Single turbo is easier. Maybe think about swapping a newer model direct injection engine (A20NHT) into the car? Same basic block/gearbox as the Z22SE.

[Scuffers]

If you really want to twin charge (a Turbo + SC I understand with that), than the Z22SE or B207 is maybe easier, as there is an GM bolt-on SC set-up for that available. Turbo to the exhaust (also a lot of kits available) and your're up for huge gobs of power. (Been done in the US in an Atom and 700HP springs to mind...)

 

issue with that idea is that I very much doubt the current bolt-on SC manifold/IC will actually flow anything like enough air for 700 Hp, it's restrictive enough with just the SC.

[slindborg]

the OP only wants 350ish bhp..... do it with the turbo and proper control. Job done, no fcuking about with twin charge

[Doctor Ed]

ever driven a twin charge? 

 

ok, so my ignorance of this entire engine line is pretty easy to spot huh? hmmm

in particular i didnt realise the z22se head flows opposite to the z20let. goddamn.

 

take home message im getting though:

- the z20let is basically a stand alone. not a lot of interchangeable engines/parts to play with, but would make a stout single turbo if built well.

- the z22se is the place to start if you want to do odd stuff, ie saab engine swap, sc build, custom turbo setup etc.

 

the TÜV issue is certainly a problem with the twincharge. theres ways around that, but it wouldnt be a streamlined process.

 

reason for the twincharge is a) you really need to drive a small capacity twincharged setup, and b ) i already had an audi 1.8 TC project, and id have liked to transition the experience of that to another platform.

 

hmmm

 

so does anything interesting bolt up to the z20let gearbox? anything alloy blocked?

Edited by ed.oates, 17 December 2015 - 03:58 PM.

[slindborg]

I guess the point was more that for the small power you appear to want, you dont need to do the twincharge.... I'm sure its lovely to drive but if you build, spec and setup a single for what youre after then it'll be almost as good.

 

or have double turbos at the very least to save the supercharger mess.

[Scuffers]

exactly, might just as well get the all ali 2.2 and supercharge it as many have done, 350 Hp is easily do-able with zero downsides.

 

when you said twin-charging, I had this in mind:

 

[Doctor Ed]

well, thats one way of doing it... 

[stu8v]

Anti lag. No response issues then ;-)

[Doctor Ed]

*collects turbine fragments out of the cat* I'm a bit annoyed by this, keep getting stymied by things. I know 350 isn't mega hp, but turbo lag of any kind would annoy me in this chassis, and TC has a lot of benefits to the combustion process over just early spool.

Edited by ed.oates, 17 December 2015 - 10:09 PM.

[Jocke_D]

How about the "standard" recipe with a B207 combined to a Harrop on top and decent charge cooling?

I mean, if mega hp (just a lot) isn't what you're looking for this could be the way to go.

Or use the 2.4 block with Harrop and forged internals... 

If (when) the need for more hp surfaces there is always WI and the normal porting, bigger valves etc.

Maybe even building you own intake with less restriction and more cooling. I'm thinking a guy that has already built a TC engine could be the one to take a shot at this holy grail ;-)

 

ed => are you familiar with the excellent "Dutch software" ?

 

 

(I'm feeling more and more like a looser with my goal of 250hp in my upcoming build )

[Scuffers]

*collects turbine fragments out of the cat* I'm a bit annoyed by this, keep getting stymied by things. I know 350 isn't mega hp, but turbo lag of any kind would annoy me in this chassis, and TC has a lot of benefits to the combustion process over just early spool.

go the same route as many on here have, TVS supercharger on a built 2.2 engine, job done.

 

if 350 is you're goal, then it's an easy well trodden path.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Once you start playing with the Harrop TVS supercharger cooling is more of a issue More of us now are looking into WI to try and reduce intake temps, etc If the power could be constant 350 hp I would be very happy

[Scuffers]

Once you start playing with the Harrop TVS supercharger cooling is more of a issue More of us now are looking into WI to try and reduce intake temps, etc If the power could be constant 350 hp I would be very happy

really?

 

Lee's car works just fine.