80 replies to this topic

[Doctor Ed]

a properly mapped tune cannot overcome some of the basic compromises of combustion. please point me to a dyno operator who can magically make 380hp with a 3071 on 2bar by 2.5k with 98RON. just doesnt work. E85 has changed things a lot regarding how turbines can be expected to behave, and literally revolutionised how a turbo motor can be built. but i said pump fuel. pigs of things to drive

 

Edited by ed.oates, 21 December 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[Doctor Ed]

 

 

 

Don't forget this guy is building up his car from a chassis, so he can put decent sized wheels/tyres on and wont necessarily be inhibited by existing clam arches...  

 

 

a lot of this

 

 

 

 

Anyway, this guy is building the car as a track car (only?) I believe.

 

 

 

a little bit of this

[slindborg]

Depends what kind of air you are trying to flow at 2Bar.... given Manifold pressure is merely a measure of how restrictive the intake/exhaust system is.

[Doctor Ed]

[slindborg]

jolly good. Another for the list... shame, you seemed to be one that wouldnt make it there

[Doctor Ed]

I dont get you, nor where you think 'there' is? also not sure what your point is? *shrugs*

 

 

[Scuffers]

a properly mapped tune cannot overcome some of the basic compromises of combustion. please point me to a dyno operator who can magically make 380hp with a 3071 on 2bar by 2.5k with 98RON. just doesnt work. E85 has changed things a lot regarding how turbines can be expected to behave, and literally revolutionised how a turbo motor can be built. but i said pump fuel. pigs of things to drive

OK, not a 3071 (GTX3582R), but std 98Ron fuel.

 

 

 

(and this was with a 1.2Bar limit till ~3750 Rpm)

[Scuffers]

Back to the point though, you don't need 2 bar boost to make 350Hp on a 2,2, and a TVS will easily achieve the 350Hp target wihout boost threshold issues.

[Doctor Ed]

I was thinking the 2.0, not 2.2, and yeah, prob more like 1,5bar for 350, but that wasn't really my point. What on earth is running 600hp at 9k with a gt35? What capacity? The whole graph wold be useful, along with boost log and info on how that was run. Certainly a pretty decent motor based on the little info provided

[Scuffers]

Not much to say, 2.142 CC (89x86) K20 block and head, GTX3582R turbo, M62 supercharger,  Rotatest Hub-dyno.

 

Boost was mapped, on low boost was 1.2Bar (from ~2.5K  to limiter), high boost was 2Bar from 6K to limiter (plot shows high boost)

 

(HP limit was basically fuel limited by single pump and 1,000cc injectors, hence the flat top of the power curve).

 

 

 

 

 

[FLD]

I know I've wittered on about these before on here but why not VNT / VGT turbo?  The usual reply is EGT issues and the turbo noot surviving on track but Geoff Kershaw runs an XR4x4 hull climb / sprint car with a pair of VNT's and has 3lbs boost at tick over and runs up to around 750bhp with it.  I know he's not exactly going to have issues with supplies of replacement turbos but it must be reasonably robust.

 

The US guys seem to favour the VGT route with modified Holsett turbos.  Both seem to be good options IMO although I've only had any experience with the garrett VNT's.

 

ETA:

GK's engine with VNT fitted.

Edited by FLD, 21 December 2015 - 04:35 PM.

[Scuffers]

VGT + Petrol engine + high loads = dead turbo

 

ask why no OEM has managed to get this to work?

 

the problem is they simply can't deal with the extreme EGT's, they work just fine on dismals though.

 

Mr. [color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]Kershaw's car does sprints, ie. less than 60 seconds running (he is a nice man though, brought an Elise of me years ago!)[/color]

 

I also doubt that made 750Hp as the ford/cosworth FBA/B blocks were simply not that strong, I ran an FBE version in my ProSport and even with only 320Hp they would shear the mains off the block and that was with massive bracing on the dry-sump pans etc.

 

 

Edited by Scuffers, 21 December 2015 - 04:44 PM.

[Doctor Ed]

GTX3582R turbo, M62 supercharger    

Oh! Well that explains everything! Of course the curve looks good, lol. Exactly why TC is awesome

[Scuffers]

 

GTX3582R turbo, M62 supercharger    

Oh! Well that explains everything! Of course the curve looks good, lol. Exactly why TC is awesome

 

Compound, not TC.

 

and back to your 350 target, the SC could manage that all on it's own.

[Doctor Ed]

Compound = TC

[Scuffers]

Compound = TC

depends on your definition.

 

TC = Twin-charged, so could be sequential or compound, in reality, the accepted definition is sequential.

[Doctor Ed]

Guess it's a country/region thing. TC is compound charging in my circles Edit.. Wikipedia agrees with me: https://en.m.wikiped...iki/Twincharger

Edited by ed.oates, 21 December 2015 - 05:14 PM.

[Rosssco]

As above, a few SC options available for ~350bhp.

 

Another option which no one has really tried yet (its been mooted a few times on here), is using current gen ECOTEC engine found in the Astra VXR / Opel Insignia. 2.0L turbo unit (Google LNF or A20NFT / NHT) but with direct injection, VVT, twin scroll turbo etc. so its supposed to be very responsive.

 

Its essentially the same block (but stronger with improvements) as the standard 2.2 engine, so it bolts right in like the SAAB engines. Main restriction is getting the standard ECU to work outside the original vehicle, but its not rocket science.

 

With a modifed version of the standard K04 turbo (don't think the compressor side has sufficient air flow capacity) it will do ~350bhp. A good bit more with the right turbo kit.

 

If they made the VX220 Turbo now, its what they would install as standard.

[FLD]

VGT + Petrol engine + high loads = dead turbo   ask why no OEM has managed to get this to work?   the problem is they simply can't deal with the extreme EGT's, they work just fine on dismals though.   Mr. Kershaw's car does sprints, ie. less than 60 seconds running (he is a nice man though, brought an Elise of me years ago!)   I also doubt that made 750Hp as the ford/cosworth FBA/B blocks were simply not that strong, I ran an FBE version in my ProSport and even with only 320Hp they would shear the mains off the block and that was with massive bracing on the dry-sump pans etc.    

That's the power level claimed on the minker 2 brochure. It does run k type thermocouples in the exhaust for control of egt. You are right though, crap engine with weak mains! I ran a pair of those turbos on a GBA engine in a mk2 escort without engine issues. Just a road car though. The holsetts are used on v8 bbc/sbc engines without egt issues.

[Scuffers]

said FBE, you can see how under-cut the mains are by the bores...