243 replies to this topic

[oakmere]

You can build the map so you don't have to wait to process the measurement. So say the main cells hit are green precess the measurement make permanent this will update your fuel map save copy of map for your backup. You can then do another fuel learn concentrating on the cells that didn't get enough hits. The advantage to this method when fort starting is you don't loose a hours worth of data.

Edited by oakmere, 07 September 2016 - 09:35 AM.

[oakmere]

You will not turn all the cells green so don't spend hours trying.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

you can smooth the fuel cells of also 

 

[Jocke_D]

You can build the map so you don't have to wait to process the measurement. So say the main cells hit are green precess the measurement make permanent this will update your fuel map save copy of map for your backup. You can then do another fuel learn concentrating on the cells that didn't get enough hits. The advantage to this method when fort starting is you don't loose a hours worth of data.

 

The thing I missed, I think, is just that. There is no need to "process measurement" after every "Read ECU" (?)

This caused me to save lots and lots of unneccesary files and also made  me doubt what I was doing.

 

 

you can smooth the fuel cells of also 

 

 

Yeah. I take it that that is what is said in the manual about interpolating/extrapolating the cells?!

 

 

 

 

And just to be sure. I can start to make a fuel learn. Then save the processed fuel table but not loading it into the ECU. Then later on I can load that fuel table (into OBDTUner) and continue with that learn session before I upload it to the ECU. Correct?

 

 

What is your strategy when learning? Just go out driving around and doing some 2nd gear pulls when it is appropriate to get the higher rev/boost cells?

Is it possible to start learning on track. I mean it's obviously a good place for high revs/boost. Or will the engine run to lean and start taking damage?

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Yes the best way way IMO is when you continually save the file over right the file you did before That way your not getting loads of fileS then when finished then process measurement and add to fuel table and smooth then make perminant

Edited by CHILL Gone DUTCH, 08 September 2016 - 08:51 AM.

[oakmere]

If you go out for a 1 hour drive with variable driving (normal, full rpm pulls and low rpm high load). This will give you a good fuel learn. Do not over complicate the process. Then when you stop do not turn off the engine process the results and make perm which will stall the engine(normal). If you then want to do a further fuel learn you can it will then only make a significant change to the cells not previously hit as it has already learnt the majority of the fuel cells. You will see small changes every time you carry out a fuel learn due to environmental factors. I like to carry out a fuel learn from n average weather conditions so not vey hot or cold.

[Jocke_D]

Sounds like I'm on the right path

 

A couple of things more...

Not sure if I will be able to say what I'm after here since it's kind of hard with the english when stuff get to complicated

 

Say I want to split my learning session into two parts, perhaps one low rev and one high rev.

First I do a learn in low revs, split up by several "Read ECU", process measurement and then make the calibration permanent. All good, car runs fine in low revs...

Then, when I want to do the high rpm session I won't be able to see where the first session "left off" and the new one should start. Or could I just load the first file into OBDTuner and carry on from there although the ECU now runs on another base map?

 

Maybe I'm over complicating things here. It's just that I normally really need to understand stuff that I'm doing and in this case when It's something I do for a living I REALLY want to understand how it works

[oakmere]

Yes you can learn low rpm first say up to 4000 rpm make the changes permanent on your fuel map. Then go out and carry out a high rpm fuel learn. The fuel map smoothing will take care of any missed cells. I would not do this for a SC car personally as I would do a full rpm run then some normal driving while the engine temperatures come down then another WOT run.

Edited by oakmere, 08 September 2016 - 01:16 PM.

[Jocke_D]

Yes you can learn low rpm first say up to 4000 rpm make the changes permanent on your fuel map. Then go out and carry out a high rpm fuel learn. The fuel map smoothing will take care of any missed cells. I would not do this for a SC car personally as I would do a full rpm run then some normal driving while the engine temperatures come down then another WOT run.

 

 

That sounds pretty much like how I did but didn't have the time to finish it.

 

Will have another go next week, super busy all weekend...

[Jocke_D]

So had a TD at beautiful Kinnekulle ring yesterday with the Swedish Opel club. Met fellow .org'ers Tonie, Mattias and Aerodynamic. We had a great time, besids for the mid day rain shower and Mattias with a failing coolant tank.

 

For the first time I wen ton track and could make some good logging. Some might remember I asked about a strange loss of power  a while back. Now it was really obvious and I could also find that my suspicions were correct. There is a loss of boost, big time.

 

Here is a screenshot from the second session. Black is pedal position and blue is MAP. I have used my remarkable paint skills to highlight the four first laps. First three there is no boost but on the fourth something happens and all of a sudden the go pedal seem to work again.

My main suspect is the bypass valve somehow getting stuck in open position. All ideas are welcome. One is to mount a GoPro to see how the valve behaves...

 

 

Inlet temps maxed out at almost 80 degrees when I had full bosst an entire session and ambient temp was something like 20C. So my twin ear rads is not up for the job as I was well aware. Any ideas about how much power I'm losing when inlets are this high?

[smiley]

With my M62 and 3.05" pully i get up to 75 degrees on track on a hot day. With my harrop and 3.15" pully i get up to 90 degrees on track on a hot day

 

Ecu protection (oem and obdtuner default) will act like this:

 

60C - 0,0 degree retard 65C - 0,5 degree retard 70C - 1,0 degree retard 75C - 1,5 degree retard 80C - 2,0 degree retard

 

That is of course next to the power you loose, due to the hot air itself.

 

Better lookup the topics over here on water injection.

[Jocke_D]

What your numbers are saying I'm not running THAT horribly hot. About the same IAT but I have a bigger pulley so they kind of equal each other out.

 

I am familiar with the ignition retard but how much power will I loose? Is that at all possible to say? 

 

I spoke some about WI with Mattias yesterday and got to look at his system. I will perhaps look into that next winter.

This winter will be about manifold+exhaust and front mounted charge cooler (and suspension and toe links and 340R geo ABS delete and permanently mounted tablet  and perhaps 3.2" pulley etc)

 

 

 

Anyone with ideas where my boost has gone?

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

It's not just the ignition retard it's also the extra fuel which is injected Which does cost hp But it's a spiral issue as the ignition gets cut you also create more heat through a inefficient burn Which can quickly spiral out of control Not sure about your setup and how much ignition you have been able to dial in but the closer you get to peak ignition the less heat will build up to start with I estimate mine goes from 360+ hp to a around 320 hp very quickly Let's hope the wi does the trick

[smiley]

The germans once took a whack at power loss using the DIN70020, saying about 3% for every 10 degrees. So in your case somewhere 25 to 30 bhp lost.

 

[oakmere]

Could your boost drop not be belt slip?

[Jocke_D]

It's not just the ignition retard it's also the extra fuel which is injected Which does cost hp But it's a spiral issue as the ignition gets cut you also create more heat through a inefficient burn Which can quickly spiral out of control Not sure about your setup and how much ignition you have been able to dial in but the closer you get to peak ignition the less heat will build up to start with I estimate mine goes from 360+ hp to a around 320 hp very quickly Let's hope the wi does the trick

 

Did not think about the other consequences of retard and extra fuel. This means it is even more important to fix the cooling.

 

 

 

The germans once took a whack at power loss using the DIN70020, saying about 3% for every 10 degrees. So in your case somewhere 25 to 30 bhp lost.

 

 

Ok, I will let Tonie and the other guys know this. All drivers excuses are very welcome

 

 

Could your boost drop not be belt slip?

 

Good thinking. Did not consider that. I hope it isn't. Belt, SC pulley and tensioner are brand new. Is there a good way to check???

Is it possible that I have slippage for the entire first session and three laps in the second and then it is gone never to come back during the day?

I drove some 150km from home to the track first, let the car rest for about 45-60mins before the first session.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Do a power run and check pressure Green line In lower part of graph

[Jocke_D]

When I have done my power runs there have been no loss of power/boost. The boost is sitting steady at 165 - 170 kpi just like after I got the boost back in the last picture.

[smiley]

Can you mail me the full log that includes your 4 runs?

Edited by smiley, 12 September 2016 - 02:43 PM.

[Jocke_D]

Can you mail me the full log that includes your 4 runs?

 

Sure!

Will do that when I get home to the computer where they are stored.

 

 

Don't want to bias your thinking but Peter answered and agreed with me about the bypass valve not closing as it should. He also says belt slippage would normaly not build boost in the way the logs are showing which is reassuring.