Lotus on Crack
Posted 14 June 2016 - 11:36 AM
IS that what the in/out vote is for to "drop" back to EEA or ALL out?
Parliament is 75% for Remain. Tories have a majority of 12.
The initial settlement with the EU will still be very integrated.
Even if you want to come all the way out, EEA is still the first step of the transition.
In EEA we can make our own trade deals. Minimise dependence on EU trade and have loads of time to negotiate.
EEA takes all the economic risk out of leaving.
Formerly LY055SCO
Posted 14 June 2016 - 12:31 PM
flolEEA takes all the economic risk out of leaving.
Supercharger of Doom
Posted 14 June 2016 - 01:48 PM
So I joined a gym club a few years back on a 10 year deal decent place nice machines and service but now all the owners have moved overseas and they have put the price up to £100 a week but not to worry I get a £20 voucher to spend in the club each week providing I buy something supplied by another member and they will also sell anything I produce ? Not much use as I now produce very little So one day I was talking to some other members about costs and the first guy said he only paid £50 a month and got £40 back second guy said he paid in £40 and got a voucher for £40 that's a good deal I thought but this last guy reckoned he got free membership and also got a £40 voucher so him and hundreds of his mates joined so now there is no room and half the equipment needs maintenance 😡 So I had a letter today telling me if I wanted to opt out if my membership I could 😀 Hmm not sure 😀
Except you pay less than anyone else in the gym for your membership. Doesn't mean you can't complain about the quality of the equipment nor the membership numbers and try to force the management to carry out a refurbishment though.
Scary Internerd
Posted 14 June 2016 - 02:30 PM
Tried that but we have had numerous knob heads try to sort things but they are either weak or are outvoted by the people who pay less wanting me to keep paying to subsidise themExcept you pay less than anyone else in the gym for your membership. Doesn't mean you can't complain about the quality of the equipment nor the membership numbers and try to force the management to carry out a refurbishment though.So I joined a gym club a few years back on a 10 year deal decent place nice machines and service but now all the owners have moved overseas and they have put the price up to £100 a week but not to worry I get a £20 voucher to spend in the club each week providing I buy something supplied by another member and they will also sell anything I produce ? Not much use as I now produce very little So one day I was talking to some other members about costs and the first guy said he only paid £50 a month and got £40 back second guy said he paid in £40 and got a voucher for £40 that's a good deal I thought but this last guy reckoned he got free membership and also got a £40 voucher so him and hundreds of his mates joined so now there is no room and half the equipment needs maintenance 😡 So I had a letter today telling me if I wanted to opt out if my membership I could 😀 Hmm not sure 😀
Supercharger of Doom
Posted 14 June 2016 - 03:10 PM
You've got it the wrong way around, every other member is effectively subsiding your membership, even if you don't use it.
Theoretically, they should be glad to cancel your membership and I think the bloke from France would (not so?) secretly love to, as he didn't want you to join in the first place, as he always felt like he should be top dog and have first call on all the equipment. The relatively well-off but usually reasonable guy from Germany might be less keen, as he's likely to end up stumping up for the bulk of your unpaid fees and he kind of felt like he had an ally in you. At the end of the day, the membership committee will probably all have a chat in the changing room and have a thorough read of the contract smallprint, to make sure things end up in their favour as much as possible, if only to discourage others from doing similar.
Scary Internerd
Posted 14 June 2016 - 03:26 PM
☺️😄👍🏻You've got it the wrong way around, every other member is effectively subsiding your membership, even if you don't use it. Theoretically, they should be glad to cancel your membership and I think the bloke from France would (not so?) secretly love to, as he didn't want you to join in the first place, as he always felt like he should be top dog and have first call on all the equipment. The relatively well-off but usually reasonable guy from Germany might be less keen, as he's likely to end up stumping up for the bulk of your unpaid fees and he kind of felt like he had an ally in you. At the end of the day, the membership committee will probably all have a chat in the changing room and have a thorough read of the contract smallprint, to make sure things end up in their favour as much as possible, if only to discourage others from doing similar.
Super Duper Member
Posted 15 June 2016 - 08:58 AM
☺️😄👍🏻You've got it the wrong way around, every other member is effectively subsiding your membership, even if you don't use it. Theoretically, they should be glad to cancel your membership and I think the bloke from France would (not so?) secretly love to, as he didn't want you to join in the first place, as he always felt like he should be top dog and have first call on all the equipment. The relatively well-off but usually reasonable guy from Germany might be less keen, as he's likely to end up stumping up for the bulk of your unpaid fees and he kind of felt like he had an ally in you. At the end of the day, the membership committee will probably all have a chat in the changing room and have a thorough read of the contract smallprint, to make sure things end up in their favour as much as possible, if only to discourage others from doing similar.
His Serene Highness
Posted 15 June 2016 - 09:24 AM
IS that what the in/out vote is for to "drop" back to EEA or ALL out?
Parliament is 75% for Remain. Tories have a majority of 12.
The initial settlement with the EU will still be very integrated.
Even if you want to come all the way out, EEA is still the first step of the transition.
In EEA we can make our own trade deals. Minimise dependence on EU trade and have loads of time to negotiate.
EEA takes all the economic risk out of leaving.
I have to give the Swiss experience here. In a 2014 referendum the Swiss very narowly voted to introduce immigration quotas. The implementation of this then throws up all the trade agreements Switzerland has with the EU. The EU says you must accept all the agreements or none - you can't cherry pick.
This is the problem of being outside the EU but adopting the single market. You have no say in the rules of the single market, you take them all or none. For this reason, all those who want out because of immigration - I'm not sure you'll get what you want. You may actually get less than you have now because I don't see the UK wanting out of the single market.
Personally I don't think leave or remain is a massive issue. I really like the idea of open borders, and end to nationalism, the ability to travel and work in other countries without big barriers. I don't like the way the EU is run, but then I don't like the way the UK is run either. I don't know if it's socialism or corporatism, but gravy train beaurocracy of meddling politicians and civil servants is really taking a toll on quality of life.
Scary Internerd
Posted 15 June 2016 - 10:03 AM
..well said....but what is the alternative than to shake the buggers up now and again..that peeps can actually think for themselves. .we may be a position that if direct change doesn't happen then the people would rise up..
IS that what the in/out vote is for to "drop" back to EEA or ALL out?
Parliament is 75% for Remain. Tories have a majority of 12.
The initial settlement with the EU will still be very integrated.
Even if you want to come all the way out, EEA is still the first step of the transition.
In EEA we can make our own trade deals. Minimise dependence on EU trade and have loads of time to negotiate.
EEA takes all the economic risk out of leaving.
I have to give the Swiss experience here. In a 2014 referendum the Swiss very narowly voted to introduce immigration quotas. The implementation of this then throws up all the trade agreements Switzerland has with the EU. The EU says you must accept all the agreements or none - you can't cherry pick.
This is the problem of being outside the EU but adopting the single market. You have no say in the rules of the single market, you take them all or none. For this reason, all those who want out because of immigration - I'm not sure you'll get what you want. You may actually get less than you have now because I don't see the UK wanting out of the single market.
Personally I don't think leave or remain is a massive issue. I really like the idea of open borders, and end to nationalism, the ability to travel and work in other countries without big barriers. I don't like the way the EU is run, but then I don't like the way the UK is run either. I don't know if it's socialism or corporatism, but gravy train beaurocracy of meddling politicians and civil servants is really taking a toll on quality of life.
Formerly LY055SCO
Posted 15 June 2016 - 10:13 AM
By AA Gill: IT WAS THE WOMAN ON QUESTION TIME THAT REALLY DID IT FOR ME. SHE WAS SO FAMILIAR. THERE IS SOMEONE LIKE HER IN EVERY QUEUE, EVERY COFFEE SHOP, OUTSIDE EVERY SCHOOL IN EVERY PARISH COUNCIL IN THE COUNTRY. MIDDLE-AGED, MIDDLE-CLASS, MIDDLE-BROW, OVER-MADE-UP, WITH HER NATIONAL HEALTH FACE AND WEATHERPROOF ENGLISH EXPRESSION OF HURT RIGHTEOUSNESS, SHES BRITANNIAS MOTHER-IN-LAW. THE CAMERA CLOSED IN ON HER AND SHE SHOUTED: ALL I WANT IS MY COUNTRY BACK. GIVE ME MY COUNTRY BACK. It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: Back from what? Back from where? Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity. We all know what getting our country back means. Its snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective yesterday with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. Its the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again. The dream of Brexit isnt that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, its a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity. And if you think thats an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers. This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteers minds eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed. All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then well get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empresss good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots. There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: its because the young arent infected with Bisto nostalgia. They dont recognise half the stuff Ive mentioned here. Theyve grown up in the EU and at worst its been neutral for them. The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. Theyre about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is womens liberation has gone too far. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness well, thats gone mad, hasnt it? to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they dont know if theyre coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And dont get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits. We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals theyre going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what theyre offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side. Really, thats their best offer? Thats the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: Ello luv, youre looking nice today. Would you like some? When the rest of us ask how thats really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that theyre going to still really fancy us, honest, theyre gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they cant get enough of old John Bull. Of course theyre going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after weve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesnt it? Have no doubt, this is a divorce. Its not just business, its not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing were supposed to want back so badly, like Frodos ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We wont notice it coming back, because we didnt notice not having it in the first place. You wont wake up on June 24 and think: Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and Im buff with the power of sovereignty. This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom. Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You cant have too many wise heads and different opinions. If youre really worried about red tape, by the way, its not just a European problem. Were perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated. The first X I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasnt been a day when I havent been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I dont need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians arent making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and thats no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting. The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge. Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You cant dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it? I understand that if we leave we dont have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in."
Super Duper Member
Posted 15 June 2016 - 11:27 AM
What a brilliant article, even though I'm an 'old git', not scared or philistine though! Reminded me that when we were in Scotland just before their in/out vote, I asked our charming waitress what she thought of it all and she went red in the face, grew horns and shouted 'We want our freedom, we deserve our freedom' and then suddenly went back to being normal again. She was unable to say what she wanted to be free from or why, it was really bizarre and has stuck in my mind ever since.
Edited by Madmitch, 15 June 2016 - 11:30 AM.
Formerly LY055SCO
Posted 15 June 2016 - 11:42 AM
You're probably expecting a bit too much from a waitress. Interesting she grew horns and went red though. Waiting is obviously wasted on her and you should take up fictional writing.
The independence movement in Scotland is a different argument. It's not inward looking..given the projected outcome of the ref with Scotland voting to stay in and mostly from independence supporters you might grasp that. Access to that market and the ability to source talent from across the EU is good for Scotland.
Super Member
Posted 15 June 2016 - 11:51 AM
Formerly LY055SCO
Posted 15 June 2016 - 11:53 AM
I'm probably being hard on waitresses there. Let me lay it out more simply.
You're a young woman doing unskilled work (god only knows the feelings of her boss on the issue) going about your business and a customer out of the blue asks you a very contentious political question, one that you apparently fully expected her to go on at length about.
What exactly in reality is she meant to do? What would you do?
She was likely pretty embarrassed and nervous hence the red face and flustered reaction.
Need to get Out More
Posted 15 June 2016 - 12:12 PM
For those of us who are more concerned about any potential loss of our sovereignty - here are some facts taken from the the official 1975 UK Government Referendum pamphlet (available at http://www.harvard-d...ro/pamphlet.htm) to remind us just how things change and how you can never rely on the promises of any politician..
[color=#000066;][font="helvetica, sans-serif;"]Fact No. 2.[/color][/font] [color=#000066;][font="helvetica, sans-serif;"]No important new policy can be decided in Brussels or anywhere else without the consent of a British Minister answerable to a British Government and British Parliament.[/color][/font]
[color=#000066;][font="helvetica, sans-serif;"]The top decision-making body in the Market is the Council of Ministers, which is composed of senior Ministers representing each of the nine member governments.[/color][/font]
[color=#000066;][font="helvetica, sans-serif;"]It is the Council of Ministers, and not the market's officials, who take the important decisions. These decisions can be taken only if all the members of the Council agree. The Minister representing Britain can veto any proposal for a new law or a new tax if he considers it to be against British interests. Ministers from the other Governments have the same right to veto.[/color][/font]
[color=#000066;][font="helvetica, sans-serif;"]All the nine member countries also agree that any changes or additions to the Market Treaties must be acceptable to their own Governments and Parliaments.[/color][/font]
[color=#000066;][font="helvetica, sans-serif;"]Remember: All the other countries in the Market today enjoy, like us, democratically elected Governments answerable to their own Parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would."[/color][/font]
[color=#000066;][font="helvetica, sans-serif;"]Fact No. 3. [/color][/font][color=#000066;][font="helvetica, sans-serif;"]The British Parliament in Westminster retains the final right to repeal the Act which took us into the Market on January 1, 1973. Thus our continued membership will depend on the continuing assent of Parliament.[/color][/font]
[color=#000066;][font="helvetica, sans-serif;"]The White Paper on the new Market terms recently presented to Parliament by the Prime Minister declares that through membership of the Market we are better able to advance and protect our national interests. This is the essence of sovereignty.[/color][/font]
So the question is: Is this still true now?
Edited by Raptor, 15 June 2016 - 12:17 PM.
Super Duper Member
Posted 15 June 2016 - 12:17 PM
I'm probably being hard on waitresses there. Let me lay it out more simply.
You're a young woman doing unskilled work (god only knows the feelings of her boss on the issue) going about your business and a customer out of the blue asks you a very contentious political question, one that you apparently fully expected her to go on at length about.
What exactly in reality is she meant to do? What would you do?
She was likely pretty embarrassed and nervous hence the red face and flustered reaction.
Point taken, but remember that at that time everyone up there was talking about your in/out vote. We had been very nicely served by this lady for several days, talked about all sorts of things and got on well so not entirely out of the blue, she was also an articulate, mature lady with well developed views which she was happy to share. The point I was trying to make was that there is too much irrational emotion being expressed in this debate, as there was in that one.
Edited by Madmitch, 15 June 2016 - 12:19 PM.
Formerly LY055SCO
Posted 15 June 2016 - 12:32 PM
Indeed but it's a bit like if you had asked AMOSS or asked Max and used either alone to sum up either campaign in your head.
There will always be nutters on both sides. I'm currently arguing with one of the idiots who is running the indycamp at the Scottish parliament. They've vowed to stay there until Scotland gets independence. Their latest journey into court had them claim Jesus Christ had returned and was the rightful heir to the Scottish throne. Batshit.
We've got a very special one in David Coburn up here on the leave/UKIP front. He's comedy gold most of the time for all the wrong reasons.
it'll all be over in a week.
Fank Thuck
Made In England
Posted 15 June 2016 - 01:34 PM
. I really like the idea of open borders, and end to nationalism, the ability to travel and work in other countries without big barriers.
this only works if all the countries are equal...
same wages
same health care
same crime
same police
same lack of racism
His Serene Highness
Posted 15 June 2016 - 02:12 PM
. I really like the idea of open borders, and end to nationalism, the ability to travel and work in other countries without big barriers.
this only works if all the countries are equal...
same wages
same health care
same crime
same police
same lack of racism
You will never get that - but be honest, we're a lot closer to that now than 30/40 years ago aren't we? In any case - America is a big single market, they have massive differences in all of those things, but seem to manage.
Anyway, intra-EU migration hasn't been the big problem people thought it might be.
What has disturbed people is people coming from outside the EU and going to the UK, and while the EU hasn't handled that at all well its route cause is the awful mess that is North Africa and the Middle East.
Scary Internerd
Posted 15 June 2016 - 03:07 PM
Same tax Same vat Same fuel tax Same price cars Equal benefits system Equal state pension age The list of what we never got equalised is endless Oh but on the plus side you can bring more fags back assuming you want to kill yourselfthis only works if all the countries are equal... same wages same health care same crime same police same lack of racism. I really like the idea of open borders, and end to nationalism, the ability to travel and work in other countries without big barriers.
Edited by christhegasman, 15 June 2016 - 03:14 PM.
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