1815 replies to this topic

[techieboy]

then why would we vote to stay into something we wouldnt want to join.

Because the question is stupid and doesn't take into account the cost and impact of leaving an organisation we're already in.   I agree, if our country and economy were successful and a total standalone thing now, not reliant on trade with Europe, we'd probably not want to sign up. Or at least not on the current terms of membership (and remember, we've got better terms than anyone else in there). When we joined, our economy was a basket case, much like the economies of some of the accession countries.

[Madmitch]

 

 

If we swap the tables round and say we are not in the EU now and we was voting to come into the EU or remain independant.. What would the likely choice be? Are there not about 4/5 countries entering the eu, turkey being one of them.. Would we really want to dish more money out to these countries when sh*t hits their fan.. I dont know.. Im not really understanding the whole lot personally and the above is more of a question really.

I think in the current state of we were being asked to join it wouldn't happen unless we were getting offered a load of bail out cash

then why would we vote to stay into something we wouldnt want to join. This is where i get propper confused..

 

 

Nobody knows if 'we wouldn't want to join' and there is no way to find out so it's pointless asking that question.  When we had the opportunity to join all those years ago it was put to the vote and we voted in.  Today the question is do we want to leave.  Don't allow yourself to be side tracked by questions that are unanswerable and irrelevant, stick to the central question and then it's is easier to think through.

[Harry Hornet]

.  I think if we demonstrate a real commitment to Europe we will find support for change that we did not expect. 

 

..ok if we remain (and probably we will)...we should show commitment to Europe...e.g. .join the Euro, drive on the right etc etc..lets be european..Im sorry it will not happen

 

The UK politics will sit on the fence.... we dont have the bollocks..there has been no talk of committment...only what we may miss...

 

Max, send an email to Mr C and get him to make a statement we will commit 100% of being European....and Ill vote in.

[chris_uk]

then why would we vote to stay into something we wouldnt want to join.

Because the question is stupid and doesn't take into account the cost and impact of leaving an organisation we're already in.   I agree, if our country and economy were successful and a total standalone thing now, not reliant on trade with Europe, we'd probably not want to sign up. Or at least not on the current terms of membership (and remember, we've got better terms than anyone else in there). When we joined, our economy was a basket case, much like the economies of some of the accession countries.

But the trade isnt going to stop if we leave..

[christhegasman]

 

 

If we swap the tables round and say we are not in the EU now and we was voting to come into the EU or remain independant.. What would the likely choice be? Are there not about 4/5 countries entering the eu, turkey being one of them.. Would we really want to dish more money out to these countries when sh*t hits their fan.. I dont know.. Im not really understanding the whole lot personally and the above is more of a question really.

I think in the current state of we were being asked to join it wouldn't happen unless we were getting offered a load of bail out cash

then why would we vote to stay into something we wouldnt want to join. This is where i get propper confused..  

  Nobody knows if 'we wouldn't want to join' and there is no way to find out so it's pointless asking that question.  When we had the opportunity to join all those years ago it was put to the vote and we voted in.  Today the question is do we want to leave.  Don't allow yourself to be side tracked by questions that are unanswerable and irrelevant, stick to the central question and then it's is easier to think through.

but all the stuff we are being told will or won't happen if we leave / stay in are also speculation so by your definition pointless then an no one knows for sure I think only one thing is certain after Thursday some people will be happy some will be upset Cameron will still be a lying doodah and the country will still be in the shite 😀

Edited by christhegasman, 21 June 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[Madmitch]

 

.  I think if we demonstrate a real commitment to Europe we will find support for change that we did not expect. 

 

..ok if we remain (and probably we will)...we should show commitment to Europe...e.g. .join the Euro, drive on the right etc etc..lets be european..Im sorry it will not happen

 

The UK politics will sit on the fence.... we dont have the bollocks..there has been no talk of committment...only what we may miss...

 

Max, send an email to Mr C and get him to make a statement we will commit 100% of being European....and Ill vote in.

 

 

Harry, we are not joining the Euro, nobody has ever suggested it, we opted out of the Euro ages ago, being out gives us enormous financial benefits, especially if we can grow our economy faster than the Eurozone which we probably can if we stay in.  Likewise we do not have to drive on the right.  What we do have to do is to stop complaining about 'them' and 'their' policies and get on with sorting 'our' problems and taking charge of them.  Can't we dump the them and us idea, it's completely out of date and helps nobody!    

[Madmitch]

 

 

then why would we vote to stay into something we wouldnt want to join.

Because the question is stupid and doesn't take into account the cost and impact of leaving an organisation we're already in.   I agree, if our country and economy were successful and a total standalone thing now, not reliant on trade with Europe, we'd probably not want to sign up. Or at least not on the current terms of membership (and remember, we've got better terms than anyone else in there). When we joined, our economy was a basket case, much like the economies of some of the accession countries.

But the trade isnt going to stop if we leave..

 

 

No it isn't, we will continue to trade but will have to deal with all the import and export barriers that we will then be outside of.  Being outside will have depressed the £ so imports will be more expensive.  At the same time, although our exports will be cheaper, by the time import duty has been added at their destination they will be more expensive so will not sell so well as cheaper domestic products in those countries.  In addition the loss of £2.3bn in direct grants from the EU CAP to British farmers will have stopped so the price of food will rise, domestic and imported.  

[Madmitch]

 

 

 

 

If we swap the tables round and say we are not in the EU now and we was voting to come into the EU or remain independant.. What would the likely choice be? Are there not about 4/5 countries entering the eu, turkey being one of them.. Would we really want to dish more money out to these countries when sh*t hits their fan.. I dont know.. Im not really understanding the whole lot personally and the above is more of a question really.

I think in the current state of we were being asked to join it wouldn't happen unless we were getting offered a load of bail out cash

then why would we vote to stay into something we wouldnt want to join. This is where i get propper confused..  

  Nobody knows if 'we wouldn't want to join' and there is no way to find out so it's pointless asking that question.  When we had the opportunity to join all those years ago it was put to the vote and we voted in.  Today the question is do we want to leave.  Don't allow yourself to be side tracked by questions that are unanswerable and irrelevant, stick to the central question and then it's is easier to think through.

but all the stuff we are being told will or won't happen if we leave / stay in are also speculation so by your definition pointless then an no one knows for sure I think only one thing is certain after Thursday some people will be happy some will be upset Cameron will still be a lying doodah and the country will still be in the shite 😀

 

 

Not quite true, if we stay in we will, at worst, be in the same place as now, a major player in the largest and richest trade bloc on the planet, not really a bad place to be.  What happens in the future is speculation I agree but it is for us as major players to make change for the better happen, even if we do nothing we will be no worse off than now.  If, on the other hand, we leave then we really have no idea what the outcome will be, it is all speculation because we have never been in that position and neither has anyone else.  We know for fact that all our trade agreements will be scrapped automatically at huge cost to us and take years to rebuild, we can say with reasonable certainty that the £ will fall etc etc but there is not one benefit that can be guaranteed absolutely as a result of leaving, not one.  All the puff about we can do this or that is just that, puff, wishful thinking and speculation.  I agree completely that Thursday will be elation or disaster, which depends on where you stand!

[Harry Hornet]

 

 

.  I think if we demonstrate a real commitment to Europe we will find support for change that we did not expect. 

 

..ok if we remain (and probably we will)...we should show commitment to Europe...e.g. .join the Euro, drive on the right etc etc..lets be european..Im sorry it will not happen

 

The UK politics will sit on the fence.... we dont have the bollocks..there has been no talk of committment...only what we may miss...

 

Max, send an email to Mr C and get him to make a statement we will commit 100% of being European....and Ill vote in.

 

 

  Can't we dump the them and us idea, it's completely out of date and helps nobody!    

 

 

..and that is exactly it...we should be joined at the hip..the first step is join the euro...  

[techieboy]

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:12px;]we should be joined at the hip..[/color]the first step is join the euro...

 

Why? Being more engaged and savvy about arguing our case for a better EU doesn't depend on what side of the road we drive on.

 

Economically, things work perfectly well (actually much better) for us outside the € and there's no need to join it. It would make more sense (and there's more appetite in some countries) for dumping the € altogether and pulling back from closer economic integration (unless you're French or Italian) that has to cater for the lowest common denominator. Making some facile argument that the only way forward is to join the € and drive on the right is ridiculous and is either trying to scare the Europhobic - very Farage'esque - or just plain trolling. Not even Salmond in the IndiRef, with his apparent dislike of all things rUK and love of ceding power to the EU, was advocating joining the €.

[christhegasman]

but it is for us as major players to make change for the better happen, even if we do nothing we will be no worse off As major players we have had numerous governments that have done bugger all so why will an in vote all of a sudden change our chinless leaders ? That is why we are considering getting out as we then have some influence on who is making the rules and after 4 years we can and often do vote them out which is a luxury we don't have with Brussels maybe if we had some control over the rule makers this vote would not have been necessary ? Anyway enough from me my postal vote has gone in ! Guess which way I went for in the end ? 😀

Edited by christhegasman, 21 June 2016 - 12:07 PM.

[LY_Scott]

Not sure how voting out will make the UK government any better, more active or in your favour. If that's not throwing the baby out with the bath water I don't know what is.

[christhegasman]

Not sure how voting out will make the UK government any better, more active or in your favour. If that's not throwing the baby out with the bath water I don't know what is.

Says a true Scotsman who wants to stay in the EU but doesn't want to be part of the U.K. ?

[LY_Scott]

I don't understand the comparison? It's the more local government we want to change. One which focuses its policy here. The UK government doesn't that won't change after an out vote. If anything rural communities which benefit highly from EU grants will suffer greatly.

[LY_Scott]

Unless i picked up your last post incorrectly you are pissed off at the EU because UK governments have been chinless. That's not the EU's fault.

[Duncan_F]

Nobody's asking the really important questions.

 

If we vote leave will we still be able to play the Euromillions ?

[techieboy]

We will. Not sure whether the rest of the Europe will be able to without an FTA covering services.

[Madmitch]

but it is for us as major players to make change for the better happen, even if we do nothing we will be no worse off As major players we have had numerous governments that have done bugger all so why will an in vote all of a sudden change our chinless leaders ? That is why we are considering getting out as we then have some influence on who is making the rules and after 4 years we can and often do vote them out which is a luxury we don't have with Brussels maybe if we had some control over the rule makers this vote would not have been necessary ? Anyway enough from me my postal vote has gone in ! Guess which way I went for in the end ? 😀

 

We have the same amount of control over Brussels as everybody else, the Council of Ministers is comprised of ministers from each and every nation.  What we don't seem to have is the will Westminster.  For example, why does the UK have just 3 cutters to patrol our entire coastline while the French have, I believe, 42?  That has nothing at all to do with Brussels.  We elect our politicians so if we keep electing dead enders then that is our own doing, not Brussels.  Problem is we keep electing people who say they will make everything cheaper when we all know they can't.  The ones who say it as it is don't get elected. 

[christhegasman]

Unless i picked up your last post incorrectly you are pissed off at the EU because UK governments have been chinless. That's not the EU's fault.

You missed the point the U.K. Governments do not have the power or will not fight eu decisions that are not riight for us in the uk so get out the eu and make our own decisions which is I think what most of this is about ? There will always be some who will be effected more by a vote either way which is why we are having a majority vote ? Which the decision is probably already decided 😢

Edited by christhegasman, 21 June 2016 - 12:35 PM.

[techieboy]

 

Unless i picked up your last post incorrectly you are pissed off at the EU because UK governments have been chinless. That's not the EU's fault.

You missed the point the U.K. Governments do not have the power or will not fight eu decisions that are not riight for us in the uk so get out the eu and make our own decisions which is I think what most of this is about ? There will always be some who will be effected more by a vote either way which is why we are having a majority vote ? Which the decision is probably already decided 😢

 

Because they'll suddenly develop the intelligence, resolve and stamina to negotiate favourable exit terms and future trade agreements on Friday morning?