1815 replies to this topic

[jonnyboy]

Not Reece Mogg who advocates whatever deal gets him leadership of the party but quietly moved his business to the EU to protect himself before hanging us out to dry? He should be tried for treason that Victorian throwback knobcheese

[Captain Vimes]

Interesting comment on the proposed "deal"..

https://www.spectato...al-verdict/amp/

It didn’t take long for the EU to show that this is exactly how they plan to negotiate over the next 2 years. Ie. Leveraging the fact that we have no choice but to bend to their will once they remove our ability to walk away.

Thank you Macron for showing your true colours before we signed the deal. No wonder it took the EU 27 less than 40 minutes to approve the deal:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46336962

“the bluntest warning came from the French President Emmanuel Macron, who suggested that if the UK was unwilling to compromise in negotiations on fishing, which would need to make rapid progress, then talks on a wider trade deal would be slow.

"We as 27 have a clear position on fair competition, on fish, and on the subject of the EU's regulatory autonomy, and that forms part of our position for the future relationship talks," he said.

The president implied that without sufficient progress on trade, the backstop plan to avoid a hard border in Ireland would have to be implemented, including a temporary customs union for the whole of the UK.

"It is a lever because it is in our mutual interest to have this future relationship," Mr Macron said.
"I can't imagine that the desire of Theresa May or her supporters is to remain for the long term in a customs union, but (instead) to define a proper future relationship that resolves this problem."

Edited by Captain Vimes, 26 November 2018 - 08:40 PM.

[PaulCP]

The French and the Germans talking about fair competition is the biggest joke of the EU. Didn’t they change the goalposts a few years ago on the required compliance for certain events when they both realised they were struggling to comply

The only fair competition they understand is the one that benefits them, including so called illegal support to industry.

They only have one approach, try to stitch the opposition up and try to prosper, and then cry wolf when they get found out

Edited by PaulCP, 26 November 2018 - 09:30 PM.

[Foxy]

^Absolutely this. And it’s so blatant.

[Rosssco]

 

Interesting comment on the proposed "deal"..

https://www.spectato...al-verdict/amp/

It didn’t take long for the EU to show that this is exactly how they plan to negotiate over the next 2 years. Ie. Leveraging the fact that we have no choice but to bend to their will once they remove our ability to walk away.

Thank you Macron for showing your true colours before we signed the deal. No wonder it took the EU 27 less than 40 minutes to approve the deal:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46336962

“the bluntest warning came from the French President Emmanuel Macron, who suggested that if the UK was unwilling to compromise in negotiations on fishing, which would need to make rapid progress, then talks on a wider trade deal would be slow.

"We as 27 have a clear position on fair competition, on fish, and on the subject of the EU's regulatory autonomy, and that forms part of our position for the future relationship talks," he said.

The president implied that without sufficient progress on trade, the backstop plan to avoid a hard border in Ireland would have to be implemented, including a temporary customs union for the whole of the UK.

"It is a lever because it is in our mutual interest to have this future relationship," Mr Macron said.
"I can't imagine that the desire of Theresa May or her supporters is to remain for the long term in a customs union, but (instead) to define a proper future relationship that resolves this problem."

 

 

Some would say (and I tend to agree) that this was always going to be the end result. Fundamentally, the UK economy has become so inter-twinned and reliant with the EU (by design), and the costs of leaving are so huge, that its not really worth it without changing some radial changes to direction and all the associated costs.

 

[Sutol]

Don't profess to know much about the deal but my feeling is that the EU want to see this exit from the EU fail and any deal that they agree to will have this in mind. After all, if the UK does well out of it, it might start the collapse of the EU. 

[Foxy]

Don't profess to know much about the deal but my feeling is that the EU want to see this exit from the EU fail and any deal that they agree to will have this in mind. After all, if the UK does well out of it, it might start the collapse of the EU. 

Absolutely they want to see it fail - they desperately need us to stay. The EU is FUBAR.

 

https://www.youtube....v=I5QwKEwo4Bc 

[PaulCP]

Don't profess to know much about the deal but my feeling is that the EU want to see this exit from the EU fail and any deal that they agree to will have this in mind. After all, if the UK does well out of it, it might start the collapse of the EU.

Absolutely they want to see it fail - they desperately need us to stay. The EU is FUBAR.

Yes, they want it to fail and no doubt are a little concerned that the “takers” from the pot, who represent to majority of the membership, are going to have to cut their requirements since the pot size will no longer be there without the UKs contribution.
None of the other contributors, or their people, can afford to cough up more hence the reasons to try & stitch up the U.K. exit so the unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats/dictators can save their fat salaried & pensioed jobs.

The taker’s just want to take all they can, hence none of them are prepared to upset the Apple cart by not agreeing with everything that has been dictated to them by those with vested interests

[Ormes]

 

Don't profess to know much about the deal but my feeling is that the EU want to see this exit from the EU fail and any deal that they agree to will have this in mind. After all, if the UK does well out of it, it might start the collapse of the EU. 

Absolutely they want to see it fail - they desperately need us to stay. The EU is FUBAR.

 

https://www.youtube....v=I5QwKEwo4Bc 

 

 

Like it, tells it how it is... another:

 

 

 

[Jetpilot]

 

including the news today that May has folded on Spain/Gib because of their threats, she is just bending us all over for the EU.

Only if you believe, or want to believe the biased crap reporting coming from the media again.

 

 

- Leave no deal
- Remain as before
- Leave on current deal

 

 

Ah the usual cry if someone wants to disbelieve something, condemn the media/link or whatever other reference is put forward but anything a remainer puts up is factual, unbiased gold

 

Good call if there were to be another vote though 

[PaulCP]

including the news today that May has folded on Spain/Gib because of their threats, she is just bending us all over for the EU.

Only if you believe, or want to believe the biased crap reporting coming from the media again.


- Leave no deal
- Remain as before
- Leave on current deal

Ah the usual cry if someone wants to disbelieve something, condemn the media/link or whatever other reference is put forward but anything a remainer puts up is factual, unbiased gold

Good call if there were to be another vote though

Lol, if you believe unjustified, unqualified and lack of questioning of facts or research on anything then allow yourself to be mislead. Journalists don’t exist, all we have is reporters.

Everyone has an opinion,which they believe is correct, quoting all sorts of distorted twisted facts and the media just report without questioning.. No one can tell the future, only the past. Whatever happens we will only know who was right in another 10 years.

[Sutol]

I wonder what Margaret Thatcher would have done. I'm almost of the mind to give the EU the middle finger and say " you've had your chance"

[Jetpilot]

Lets be honest, its been a farce since the morning after the vote, stalling from the government of signing article 50, DC resigning, a new pm elected, a general election called.

 

Article 50 should have been signed immediately. all this pontificating has just shown our weakness and reluctance from the government to actually leave and with TM a remainer at the helm, well what could we expect.

 

I did some work for an old boy once who was in television, he had met MT a number of times, to cut it short he said she would come to a meeting, be more informed than the people doing the job, tear strips off them, tell them how to sort it, get up and leave, his lasting memory was a room full of men speechless until someone said, right best get it done then! 

 

Is it any wonder we cant survive without the EU with any of the parties and their leaders these days!

[jonnyboy]

Nobody expected a remain vote that's why it's been a mess. 

 

I would wager that of the people that didn't vote a majority of them were complacent remainers that mistakenly didn't think their vote would matter. Personalyl although as you may have guess I'm a remainer I don't feel that in itself is a good enough reason to have another ref vote just in terms of the constitution. It's an imperfect system that delivered us a binary answer on what was for all practical reasons a 50/50 split vote in reality.   

 

We will be getting a vote but it's called a general election. All this power game stuff from the Conservatives and each day they are just slowly handing power to Corbyn. You literally couldn't make it up. 

 

They just need to sign this deal off and get cracking. The very vote that is the only chance they will get to actually have a Brexit and all they can do is argue over this fecking backstop which if you actually sit and take time to understand it will never ever ever come into effect anyway. In the agrement there is nothing to stop us chipping away and making further alterations as we go. It's called diplomacy.  

 

Edited by jonnyboy, 29 November 2018 - 11:52 AM.

[Rosssco]

 

They just need to sign this deal off and get cracking. The very vote that is the only chance they will get to actually have a Brexit and all they can do is argue over this fecking backstop which if you actually sit and take time to understand it will never ever ever come into effect anyway. In the agrement there is nothing to stop us chipping away and making further alterations as we go. It's called diplomacy.  

 

The main issue is that the backstop arrangement cannot be unilaterily removed - it would require agreement. I do agree it should be avoidable, but we have to remember the current agreement is just one (significant) point in a continuing negotiating process. The UK stands to put itself at (another) disadvantage if it agrees to the current proposed back stop arrangement (as then the EU can demand its pound of flesh for future concessions). It ties our hands in some way. 

 

In all honesty, the NI issue (while important) and fishing rights, have become the tail that wags the dog from a negotiating stand point.. 

 

If the point is 'taking back control', then moving to a situation where the constitutional and trade future of a part of the UK requires bilateral agreement, can rightly be seen as the opposite of the original purpose..

[Jetpilot]

It's an imperfect system that delivered us a binary answer on what was for all practical reasons a 50/50 split vote in reality.

 

So how would/could it have been done, it was always going to be a yes/no, i dont see an alternative?

[jonnyboy]

Well this is the thing I don't have an answer and those searching for a perfect solution are going to be disappointed. I'm not sure there is really a way to resolve it other than splitting the country up geographically but this kind of dispute is why there are borders and countries in the first place. Humans just love scrapping over territory it's one of our main preoccupations.

The imperfect thing with a referendum is that it's delivered an absolute with only a tiny slither over half of the vote. So 48% a very significant minority are not going to be happy. In an election you would have a coalition with that result or anywhere near that result so the reflections of the wishes of the people who voted isn't binary like the referendum was.

As we stand now there is nothing for it but to sign the deal. By whatever means it happens there won't be another chance to do it. My worry even as a Labour supporter is the potential damage Corbyn could do for the 1 to 2 max years he would last in power. He will deliver a stop to Brexit that's one good thing but at what cost?

[jonnyboy]

If the deadlock remains in parliament the only way to resolve it is a second vote or general election. A Tory leadership battle is certainly not a constitutionally fair way to move forwards.

[Rosssco]

My worry even as a Labour supporter is the potential damage Corbyn could do for the 1 to 2 max years he would last in power. He will deliver a stop to Brexit that's one good thing but at what cost?

 
Well I'd worry about the potential damage Corbyn would do in general with his out dated socialist policies, but that aside, he's a total Brexiter..!

 

He's been plonked in this situation where if he just prevaricates a little longer, he gets Brexit, AND gets to blame any bad negatives on the evil Tories..

 

Many of the policies him and his crony McDonald have towards state aid and nationalisation could not be implemented while being in the EU anyway..

[Jetpilot]

The imperfect thing with a referendum is that it's delivered an absolute with only a tiny slither over half of the vote. 

 

I totally agree, i really cant see a subject like that was ever going to be a large majority though, much like the Scottish referendum, it was always going to be a close run thing. The government put it to a referendum and a majority one though and they should have been better prepared in all areas to immediately carry out the will of the people of whom they asked the question, their delay has seriously hampered the agreement imho. I could be very far off the mark but imagine with the months of messing around with party politics, elections etc etc the EU were sat down and deciding on their position and stand point.

 

I am actually starting to believe any of our parties couldnt run this country by themselves