1815 replies to this topic

[ianrm]

It is all one big embarrassing mess. Those that voted out because they did not want our country to be run by EU have now got to rely on it being run by incompetent British MPs and that includes all parties.

 

We are supposed to be GREAT Britian, well there is certainly nothing great about it at the moment.

[casino]

True, an absolute mess. Sugar would sac the lot.
Seems to me a lot of the idiots we call MPs thinkTusk and gang were going to hand the country whatever it wanted.
And ldiots like Corbyn only have one goal, power.

What a mess. Let’s get Cameron, it’s all his fault.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

nothing to worry about the conservatives "negotiation" has come up with a way that we have legally left at the same time as pleasing the "in" vote 

 

great politics at its best  

[SteveA]

We are supposed to be GREAT Britian, well there is certainly nothing great about it at the moment.

 

Make Britain Great Again?

 

[LY_Scott]

We are supposed to be GREAT Britian, well there is certainly nothing great about it at the moment.

That was just a size thing mate compared to Britannia Minor (Ireland)

[LY_Scott]

Writing my replies in red here as this is getting hard to read:

 

 

 

Bams, bams that think brown people are their problem and will fill his coffers and pay for his new house in order that its changed....even though south asia isn't in the EU the last time I checked. Morons?
 
Also american right wing, Bannon and co are funding him now. 
 
Nothing progressive about him for sure.
[/quote]
 
 
 
 
 
 

I think that's over-simplifying it a bit Scott.. No doubt there are plenty bams, racists, bigots etc. that hold Tommy aloft as some form of crusader, but that misses the point somewhat with regards to the reasons why people like him and other elements of the right-wing have gained such prominence. And in fact just pointing the finger and calling them 'bams' fails to identify the problem and the feelings of marginalisation many working class communities have felt across the UK.

You're absolutely right. Tory policy since the crash and lack of regulation before it is the reason the economy is struggling and the poor are marginalised. We can get on to Universal Credit or the rise of the gig economy and zero hours contracts? Lack of investment in the NHS, zero building of social housing in England, outrageous buying up of foreign property ownership in London by the continued lawfulness of non-doms and shell companies... none of that is the fault of EU migrants who will come here and work and do their bet with the rest of us plebs.

 
Well your response come directly with your own ideological bias (fair enough, rather than an in-biased assessment of the facts. For example, financial deregulation happened primarily under a Labour government, and it was actually the Tories that created many of the current regulatory structures, financial assessment, OBR etc. in the wake of the GLOBAL financial crash. The idea it was the nasty Tories that the economy is stuggling is actually wrong. Post-financial crash, the UK was one of the very few EU countries that came back to relative growth, in contrast to the anaemic growth rates and negative interest rates across the majority of the Eurozone. The rest of your points, I have some agreement with, but some are just the usual lefty/ Toaries-evil stuff[/quote]
 
Ross I literally used the words "lack of regulation before it [the crash]" I think it was Vince Cable that gave us the OBR? Not convinced you are comparing the recovery of EU countries with the UK properly, especially as we are going backwards.

 
 

I don't think there have been calls to restrict migration from South Asia, but the waves of unfettered, open-border migration from 3rd world and Muslim-majority countries that the EU have condoned and actively encouraged, rightly doesn't sit well with all. You don't even have to be 'right-wing' to see that.

You're absolutely right again Ross, the referendum was about the EU. So how come Tommy keeps going on about Muslims? Can you point out the Muslim country in the EU? How has this come to be part of the debate? You could look to Farage and his poster for starters. The funniest part about this for me if that the loss of EU migrants to fill spots in our NHS and services industries will absolutely mean more migrants from South Asia and Africa to fill these places. The mind boggles.

That's exactly the point! There are no majority-Muslim EU countries (Turkey being the closest to membership), yet over the last few years there has been around 1.5 million migrants entering the EU borders. Most of these are economic migrants, rather than genuine refugees. The implication being, there is effectively no border to the EU. If you make it here, you can stay. Now you can take a completely 'open-borders' view to the world in general (the West being the only place that will do that, weirdly). This is a different issue (but often conflated) with general EU migration. I guess people got sick of exporting control of their borders to an agency who effectively says, there are no borders..
 
Hardly any Syrian refugees entered the UK 20,000 being the target which hasn't been met. The UK's policy was to assist the Syrian's remotely at the camps around Syria itself.
 
 

Yep, nationalists tend to support other nationalists, even across borders. Looks at Scot Nats / Catalonia / Irish Republican connections for the same thing.

This is just sophistry. We've found ourselves in a similar point in history to those rising in Catalonia. Not sure I see links to the Irish Republicans. You just sound like some loyalist who'll be posting pictures with Salmond(As FM of Scotland) and McGuinness (As Deputy FM of Northern Ireland) next then I'll have to post one with McGuinness and the queen etc. Try harder.

Haha, its in no way sophistry! And you're not rising, settle down There are clear and evident links between Catalonia, with the FM inviting various (sometimes slightly dubious) characters to meet up, to the constant presence of Catalan flags at every flag-waving event. Come on.. Less obvious with Irish republicanism, but there's always been a bit of a link given the nature of West coast politics etc. I could try find the stuff on the SNP councillors who often post crap on Irish reunification etc. (I'm not saying this is widespread or you are condoning it, btw) Anyway, getting off topic!
 
There's something a bit telling in your tone here. I'm not getting into circular arguments about sectarian bams who exist in all parties in Scotland. The Orange order particularly proud of how many councillors it elected last year etc. It's a nonsense and you've displayed absolutely nothing of yes movement or SNP policy towards Irish Republicanism. The Catalan case is different, I'll repeat we found ourselves at a similar point in history.

 
 

 
Part of the problem is the 'progressive' agenda that dominates main stream politics across the UK and much of the Western world. The kick-back to that is that people place their bets on traditionally marginalised (many for good reason) political ideas / concepts / leaders, hence why we've landed with the Trumps / Bannon / Brexit.

I can agree with this. There's a lot wrong with how politics has went in the west. But the answers aren't demagogues, protectionism, ethic nationalism, throwing climate change under the bus.

The biggest problem with the west is we're too distracted by nonsense and crap on TV, social media and reporting which has replaced journalism, whether that is by design or by fluke we've become dumber as a society

There's also the Russian factor, there is absolutely no doubt that the Russians were involved in Trump and Brexit. They were involved in our indyref to an extent too we were just not wise to it at that point. Putin seeks to weaken the West for his own ends and he has achieved it. The west is in no position to stop his moves while we are distracted by all of this.[/quote][/quote][/quote]
 
Agreed. We are heading towards what feels like an Idiocracy scenario. The Russians are playing the same games they always have to an extent, but from the Russian side of things (not that I'm a big fan), they see the EU neo-colonialism encroaching on their borders, Ukraine being the most obvious example, where in effect, the US and EU constructed what essentially amounted to a Western-backed coup to place an EU-friendly leader in power. They are just playing dirty in return..

Agreed, Russia has it's reasons to be angry but it's also just brash big man politics. A lot of people are being displaced, dying and the upheaval around the world is distracting us from dealing with real issues that face us and what we pass on to our kids to handle.
[/quote]
[/quote][/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]

 

 

 

Edited by LY_Scott, 10 December 2018 - 02:52 PM.

[Jetpilot]

Those that voted out because they did not want our country to be run by EU have now got to rely on it being run by incompetent British MPs and that includes all parties.

 

However utterly accurate that is at least we get a say every four years to whether we think that individual party/mp's should be in control, no such chance with the EU, they just are!

Edited by Jetpilot, 10 December 2018 - 05:38 PM.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

😮 what has happened in today
Have I missed something

[LeoD]

Those that voted out because they did not want our country to be run by EU have now got to rely on it being run by incompetent British MPs and that includes all parties.

However utterly accurate that is at least we get a say every four years to whether we think that individual party/mp's should be in control, no such chance with the EU, they just are!

No. You get to vote for your MEPs every five years. The UK currently has 73 MEPs so you have quite a large say in the day to day running of the EU. In turn they vote for and decide on senior EU positions.

Edited by LeoD, 11 December 2018 - 07:30 AM.

[Jetpilot]

A large say out of 751, perhaps we have a different version of large. Our meps are nothing more than representatives, a lot like our local mp's, they are utterly irrelevant no matter who we elect to those 73 positions in the scheme of things if the government never changes, that is not democracy.

 

What is the EU manifesto over the next four years? 

 

 

[PaulCP]

Euro MPs...............what a laugh 😂😂😂

Salaries & mega expenses for doing F’all and having F’all ability to influence anything. The EU is not a democracy hence anything beneath the real decision makers is irrelevant.

The first rule of the European Parliament is “ it cannot be involved in any EU members matters of state” hence why they discuss the shape of bananas etc

[LeoD]

A large say out of 751, perhaps we have a different version of large. Our meps are nothing more than representatives, a lot like our local mp's, they are utterly irrelevant no matter who we elect to those 73 positions in the scheme of things if the government never changes, that is not democracy.

 

What is the EU manifesto over the next four years? 

 

The number is representative to your population, so it is a large say.  Unfortunately when it comes to a negotiation you are 1/7th the size of the rest of the EU so that will only go one way.  As for the effectivenes of your MEPs, I do not have a clue, but in fairness the UK has shaped and developed some seriously good EU policy since the day you joined. I for one am gutted ye are going. Coming from one of the smallest countries in the EU regardless what way it turns out it will only be bad for us! 

[LeoD]

Euro MPs...............what a laugh 😂😂😂

Salaries & mega expenses for doing F’all and having F’all ability to influence anything. The EU is not a democracy hence anything beneath the real decision makers is irrelevant.

The first rule of the European Parliament is “ it cannot be involved in any EU members matters of state” hence why they discuss the shape of bananas etc

 

And that is why you are leaving!  Fair play to you all for having the balls to do it, just a shame the shambles it has turned into, but no doubt the UK will come out stronger and better but the end (after you get a compentent government)

[Jetpilot]

 

A large say out of 751, perhaps we have a different version of large. Our meps are nothing more than representatives, a lot like our local mp's, they are utterly irrelevant no matter who we elect to those 73 positions in the scheme of things if the government never changes, that is not democracy.

 

What is the EU manifesto over the next four years? 

 

The number is representative to your population, so it is a large say.  Unfortunately when it comes to a negotiation you are 1/7th the size of the rest of the EU so that will only go one way.  As for the effectivenes of your MEPs, I do not have a clue, but in fairness the UK has shaped and developed some seriously good EU policy since the day you joined. I for one am gutted ye are going. Coming from one of the smallest countries in the EU regardless what way it turns out it will only be bad for us! 

 

 

73 meps out of 751, the 2nd largest economy in the eu, 5th in the world and all of that means sweet fa when it comes to making our own decisions because of our size and population, even less democratic when you put it that way. 

 

However, you are absolutely right, the Eu have made some excellent policies there is no denying it, but and its a big but, who is to say we wouldnt have adopted those policies or made our own that are equally as good, it is complete conjecture that we would have bungled along had we not joined the single market and our current status (2nd largest economy in the eu and 5th in the world) is all thanks to the EU, being apparently we couldnt stand up if we left i think personally is bo&&cks.

[jonnyboy]

Works OK in the USA.

[Rosssco]

The problem with the current EU set-up isn't so much the representation in the EU parliament (which is in line with population, as noted), its that fact that MEP's don't propose or create legislation. The EU commission primarily does that, MEP's only vote on it or veto it. And the reality is that most of the proposals go through relatively unchallenged anyway. 
 
The EU commission is not democratically elected. Think of it (I know its not quite the same) as an inverted House of Lords, where the commons votes on bills, but the Lords propose the bills.. This system may be seen as acceptable as long as the remit is fairly restricted, but the EU is, and has been for some time, in the process of evolving far past its original remit, into a sort of proto-USE, with part of that being the continue drip of national sovereignty transfer from member states.

Edited by Rosssco, 11 December 2018 - 05:29 PM.

[Rosssco]

Works OK in the USA.

 
The USA has two democratically elected chambers, and differs on many other constitutional frameworks.

[LeoD]

A large say out of 751, perhaps we have a different version of large. Our meps are nothing more than representatives, a lot like our local mp's, they are utterly irrelevant no matter who we elect to those 73 positions in the scheme of things if the government never changes, that is not democracy.

What is the EU manifesto over the next four years?

The number is representative to your population, so it is a large say. Unfortunately when it comes to a negotiation you are 1/7th the size of the rest of the EU so that will only go one way. As for the effectivenes of your MEPs, I do not have a clue, but in fairness the UK has shaped and developed some seriously good EU policy since the day you joined. I for one am gutted ye are going. Coming from one of the smallest countries in the EU regardless what way it turns out it will only be bad for us!

73 meps out of 751, the 2nd largest economy in the eu, 5th in the world and all of that means sweet fa when it comes to making our own decisions because of our size and population, even less democratic when you put it that way.

However, you are absolutely right, the Eu have made some excellent policies there is no denying it, but and its a big but, who is to say we wouldnt have adopted those policies or made our own that are equally as good, it is complete conjecture that we would have bungled along had we not joined the single market and our current status (2nd largest economy in the eu and 5th in the world) is all thanks to the EU, being apparently we couldnt stand up if we left i think personally is bo&&cks.

Great post.

I was actually referring to bills and proposals made by the uk and passed into EU law, of which there are quiet a few that have of massive benefit to ALL EU countries. Best example I can think off hand is the Mobile phone roaming act limiting silly call roaming charges that used to occur while traveling in Europe That was successfully brought through by UK MEPs with much opposition.

In my opinion the UK, and all it brings to the table, is a huge loss for the EU. I would hope the EU would admit this and provide the right concessions to ensure a smooth exit strategy for both side.

Of course the UK will prosper, it did before joining the EEC, while it was part of it, and after you exit the EU. I imagine there will a few rocky months but that is purely down to the so call politicians.

The level of frustration detailed on this tread is mind blowing. I wish the you all, and the country, all the best on this

[oblomov]

 

Works OK in the USA.

 
The USA has two democratically elected chambers, and differs on many other constitutional frameworks.

 

Not so much any more.  Huge gerrymandering by the Republicans to move electoral borders in order to maintain power.  Add to that the present Republican attempts to change the powers of incoming elected officials in order to prevent them enacting the promises on which they were elected thereby deliberately subverting the will of the people.

[Captain Vimes]

The USA is nothing like the EU ie. We don’t hear about how New York has bailed out Texas, so the Texans need to reduce their retirement age and amend their welfare policy to pay back the deficit..

The EU is a collection of individual trading nations each with their own budgets and identities. A USA style model will never work in the EU.

I think this is one of the key problems with the EU - the leaders in Brussels want a United States of Europe but the people don’t. We just want a very close trading relationship with our European friends.