513 replies to this topic

[Exmantaa]

As I told you no measurements needed, 90 deg line from each pair of lams, where they intersect or as close as you can as one side falls on the edge of machined surface. You want it in as open space as poss, any spray hitting objects is virtually wasted.

 

Trying to translate that in a picture... :

 

 

For good WI efficiency we should:

- inject after the laminova cores

- Have a long, uninterupted spray path

- an even distribution for all 4 cylinders

and

- if possible the nozzles should be reasonably easy accesable...

 

So pick your WI nozzle posotion(s) please.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

thats a good and useful pic 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

looking at the inside logically looks like here 

 

but its subject to the alternator placement 

 

 

one of the two dots 

[ultimate]

I am using the snowperformance stage 2 kit from 2013 on my harrop'ed 2.0. I am using ethanol instead of methanol, mixed 60:40 water:ethanol.

Ethanol is much cheaper, not as toxic as meth and meth is very hard to get in Germany.

 

I did lots af thinking about the correct position for the nozzle. The spray pattern is a triangle.

This can be seen here:

At first i thought about injecting from the underside of the manifold like shown here:

 

But i was not sure if it can mix good enough in this short way to the head that every cylinder gets the same amount of water/ethanol mixture...

Did some searching in the US Ecotec Forums and nobody was injecting after the Laminovas because of this reason.

 

I decided to spray before the laminovas. You can see it in this video:

(I added a stop-valve when installing it in the car to prevent the dripping)

 

My installation is controlled by a air-flow-meter that i put between airfilter and throttle body. It gives a 0-5V signal that can be used for controlling the amount of injected water.

I programmed it that it starts to inject with 15% when the air-flow is on a level that equals WOT at 4000rpm.

It injects 100% at WOT and my rev-limiter which is set to 7700rpm.

Have to say that - if doing it again - i would by the stage 3 version that can use the fuel-injector signal for reference. Much easier to program and map it. But there is no need for the air-flow-meter as soon as OBD-pro is released.

 

The system works great for me and I do not know any other solution to get serious power out of the LSJ-Manifold ;-)

It gained me 35-40 degrees IAT and I am able to run around 25 degrees timing at 265kpa.

 

 

 

Edited by ultimate, 30 June 2016 - 07:10 PM.

[Duncan VXR]

Funny you say all that chill because you clearly don't understand it. You know everyone else that has asked me is happy that I make a little cash after the work I put in, you want the info without any work. Did Joe etc not make a bit from SC conversions... I'm hiding nothing, but if you expect me to do a how to, forget it.

Steve to be fair you already share more than enough on helping the masses on this subject imo If (when 😊) I do WI. I am giving it no more thought than pinging you lol. More than happy you make a bit for the trouble. You have been in the thick of it for almost a year and know you have a real thing for not dealing in bulls**t 😁 The fact your a car nut and qualified engineer has nothing to do with it 😉 DG

[ultimate]

More pics:

 

 

 

 

 

[leevx2.2]

That's where I have fitted mine just need a better way of controlling it other than boost controlled

[leevx2.2]

i will properly buy the Aquamist kit but will wait for people to see how it goes or wait for the Dutch pro and then i could control my AEM kit

[ultimate]

Boost controlled is not the best way in my opinion. Our boost levels are nearly the same from low rpm to high rpm.

When controlling the injection by boost you will get to much water at low revs and to less at high revs.

 

My way with the installed air-flow-meter worked okay but i would not do it this way again.

 

Snowperformance stage 3 uses the fuel-injector data as reference-signal.

 

I will wait for the release of OBD-Tuner pro. With this, the injection could be controlled with an rpm/map-table

[Crabash]

Ultimate, that is why I used 2 and I assure you there is plenty of space there to get good distribution. But if yours works for you and you are happy thats great. If it realy bothers you go direct port.

[Crabash]

Again correct on the boost control, particularly on SC engines boost control is very detached from what the engine needs.

[leevx2.2]

Boost controlled is not the best way in my opinion. Our boost levels are nearly the same from low rpm to high rpm.

When controlling the injection by boost you will get to much water at low revs and to less at high revs.

 

My way with the installed air-flow-meter worked okay but i would not do it this way again.

 

Snowperformance stage 3 uses the fuel-injector data as reference-signal.

 

I will wait for the release of OBD-Tuner pro. With this, the injection could be controlled with an rpm/map-table

Thats why i have never used it and was waiting until i fitted the aftermarket ecu to control it but with all the advances of the obd  tuner   i am changing to it .

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Funny you say all that chill because you clearly don't understand it. You know everyone else that has asked me is happy that I make a little cash after the work I put in, you want the info without any work. Did Joe etc not make a bit from SC conversions... I'm hiding nothing, but if you expect me to do a how to, forget it.

Only a fool would not ask questions to someone who has had a bit more expierience with it than my self. I'm not worried if I get info of you or not I will get there eventually All I'm saying is your very sketchy about any info Possibly because there are a lot of variables The instructions are not difficult the calculations are all there for everyone to see You indicated to me that you think aquamist calculations could be injecting a bit more than is required I took your advice There is nothing wrong with making a bit of money if that's what you want to do but don't say to everyone contact me individually and then make it sound more complicated than it is Because it's not There will always be variations in people's approach to things If there was more go out there people would more confidentially do it there self People who can't or don't want to are always happy to pay for your time/effort

[Exmantaa]

Trying to step over the fanny's and keep it informational, as I think we are aiming for the most effective WI system here. (check the new BMW wi system, interesting read...)

It's clear that water control by airflow or injector duty cycle is the only working system for our SC's, as the boost level is almost constant.

 

For max efficiency it's a fact that we should inject after the IC core, so after our laminova's. But then you run into the even cylinder distribution issue as it's only a shorth path from there to the valves...

(Best distribution is WI nozzle before the SC rotors. We tried that, but got only poor results in IAT. )

 

Distribution wise; better 2 small nozzles than 1 big for a good fine mist.

Nozzles have a cone spray pattern as Ulimate showed and we should try not to spray onto the walls....

That does not leave much playroom in our SC manifold and that single nozzle from the bottom up seems the most promising. (2 smaller nozzles in the bottom side gets in the way of the lower manifold bracket bolt. Or maybe 2 placed central-ish bottom and then boith spraying up, a bit angled outwards...) 

I'm also looking into spraying against the airflow, as have read that that also can help with a good even distribution.

Not sure on the side placement. Should be nozzles from both sides then to get the same amount of water in cyl 1 and cyl 4. Probably easiest for placement etc. too.

 

Or... fire 4 nozzles direct into the ports. You probably won 't measure much lower IAT, as all the cooling will be done inside the cylinders. Should work perfect, as long as your nozzles don't clog up and 1 cylinder is not cooled anymore.

 

 

@Ultimate; 265KPa boost... :wacko:Serious?   You need a bigger engine...

 

Edited by Exmantaa, 30 June 2016 - 10:59 PM.

[Crabash]

I was not having a go at joe at all, nothing wrong with making a few quid. Except apparently for me.... Info is free, understanding is not. I see so many people who think they know but have got the total wrong end of the stick. All I get is doubt whenever I try to help. I've done it and got some good results, I'm confident the way I did it is the most efficient way and yeilds best results. Unfortunately things keep getting in the way of more work I would like to do on Neils car for data purposes. As there is still plenty to improve on there with setup. Some more data will be available soon from other cars.

[Crabash]

As for distribution, with 2 side firing nozzles opposed we got consistent KR on all cylinders.

[Crabash]

I do have a 4 way temp gauge with k type TC's, not sure anyone would want to drill in to runners to be able to measure it though.

[Nev]

In regard to the trigger mechanism to switch the misting on/off, has anyone thought of this:

 

1. Thread a simple analogue air temp sensor into the manifold (post laminovas), with say an output 0 to 5 volts for 0 to 100 degrees C.

2. Buy a programmable analogue to digital converter (your ECU may already have this).

3. Program the above to output a digital value of 0 for under 50 degrees, and output a value of 1 for over 50 degrees.

4. Use the output from 3. above to a relay to switch the misting on/off appropriately.

 

In other words this system simply would trigger on actual IATs, and would be easily adjustable/programmable.

 

Parts for this would be in the region of £30 I'd guess.

 

If you felt clever and wanted more sophistication, you could program the ADC to output more gradient output values that could be used to slowly increase the misting levels in steps.

 

Edited by Nev, 01 July 2016 - 07:09 AM.

[ultimate]

@Ultimate; 265KPa boost... :wacko:Serious?   You need a bigger engine...  

Let's see what 30% more capacity, ported head and stage3 cams will help ;-)

[TFD]

@Nev: I have thought about that as well. Problem is that you could also run hight temps while cruising after spirited driving. This would mean the WI is spraying while cruising... WI is not needed at that moment since no knock.

Edited by TFD, 01 July 2016 - 07:29 AM.