513 replies to this topic

[siztenboots]

thermal time constant t₆₃ is 10 seconds max for the temperature thermistor

Response time t10/90 ms – 1.0ms for the pressure sensor

 

based on this very useful data sheet for all things motorsport sensors, http://www.farnell.c...eets/312695.pdf

[TFD]

I've been reading some stuff lately and find different conclusions on WI. 

Some say 100% WI is only beneficial in the combustionchamber and reducing temps an EGT's but NOT the IAT's. To lower the IAT's, meth seems the best stuff.

Now others claim 100% WI will reuce IAT's as long as the position of the nozzle is correct. Further away from the sensor to help atomazation. In my case it would be after the intercooler.

 

A lot of hearsayhearsay...

 

Who ran 100% water and has before/after logs?

 

Mattias seems to run 100% water and ends up at 40C IAT's. Were did you came from temp wise? What was the drop?

 

Sorry, but I just read to much contradictious posts on the internet and can't find much real experience (...and I have a bit different setup as most of you guys..).

 

Grtz,

Daniel

[scw02102]

I have also read you want the IAT sensor near the throttle body and spray the WI or WMI as far away as possible from sensor giving it more time to basically cool the air.

 

This is a quick mock up for my first idea, although we may use a bigger but single nozzle injection on the IC

 

 

Attached Files

•  WI Plan web.jpg   162.52KB   11 downloads

Edited by scw02102, 29 June 2016 - 01:01 PM.

[Acidpopstar]

I've been reading some stuff lately and find different conclusions on WI.  Some say 100% WI is only beneficial in the combustionchamber and reducing temps an EGT's but NOT the IAT's. To lower the IAT's, meth seems the best stuff. Now others claim 100% WI will reuce IAT's as long as the position of the nozzle is correct. Further away from the sensor to help atomazation. In my case it would be after the intercooler.   A lot of hearsayhearsay...   Who ran 100% water and has before/after logs?   Mattias seems to run 100% water and ends up at 40C IAT's. Were did you came from temp wise? What was the drop?   Sorry, but I just read to much contradictious posts on the internet and can't find much real experience (...and I have a bit different setup as most of you guys..).   Grtz, Daniel

That would be me last year. Check my project thread for before and after logs. I dropped 50'C! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fezzasus]

I've been reading some stuff lately and find different conclusions on WI. 

Some say 100% WI is only beneficial in the combustionchamber and reducing temps an EGT's but NOT the IAT's. To lower the IAT's, meth seems the best stuff.

Now others claim 100% WI will reuce IAT's as long as the position of the nozzle is correct. Further away from the sensor to help atomazation. In my case it would be after the intercooler.

 

A lot of hearsayhearsay...

 

Who ran 100% water and has before/after logs?

 

Mattias seems to run 100% water and ends up at 40C IAT's. Were did you came from temp wise? What was the drop?

 

Sorry, but I just read to much contradictious posts on the internet and can't find much real experience (...and I have a bit different setup as most of you guys..).

 

Grtz,

Daniel

 

Depends how you're measuring IAT drops.

 

a) Water has a greater thermal capacity than methanol, this means that it has a greater ability to remove heat for a given volume of water (vs sample volume of methanol)

Methanol evaporates at a lower temperature, the process of evaporation removes heat from the nearby location (evaporative cooling). Same approach as spraying fuel onto a valve to cool.

 

So, selecting water or methanol depends on your mode of cooling action. Are you limited by total heat or rate of heat exchange? If the former, use water, if the latter, use methanol.

 

As I understand it, water cooling has greatest benefit to increase charge density, effectively increasing BMEP. It also has attractive knock reduction and NOx reduction. Methanol toxicity is too much of a road block to prevent anything other than specialist applications.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Here is acidpopstars data from his thread 

 

 

[scw02102]

if Im honest I didnt know that compressed air makes a difference, I just thought the Map sensor reads IAT and sends that to the ecu

 

where would you suggest I move the map (IAT sensor) too?

 

I was just about to order a top hat with sensor cut in (before the Throttle body) is this wrong????

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

i take it the inlet is at the rear of that car in pic 

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

a map sensor measures pressure 

 

and Tmap measure temp and pressure 

 

 

[Crabash]

Meths main function is not cooling. 2 options.... Water for cooling alowing more head roon for tuning and no drop in power that is experienced by most on track. 50/50 water meth giving the above plus increased octane allowing more advance to be run.

[scw02102]

the sensor that is currently on the top intercooler measures IAT (as far as im aware)

 

I was going to move that to the tophat just before the TB then spray the kit after the ic and hopefully measure the new temps with the lower temp at the tophat section

[TFD]

Thanx Acidpopstar and Crabash for the write up in the resurrection thread.

 

For turbo I've read to inject after the IC and 300-500mm before throttle body...

 

Talked to Peter and he says the ecu failsafe retards timing like:

 

60C - 0,0 degree retard

65C - 0,5 degree retard

70C - 1,0 degree retard

75C - 1,5 degree retard

80C - 2,0 degree retard

 

So yes, high temps cost power by 2 degrees retard timing (which usually is some decent hp loss). Dropping AFR doesn't cost you much HP (basicly non).

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

if you ask nicely and have spent a sh*t loads on a strong engine this can be removed

[TFD]

Yes I know, Peter told me. Just posted it for reference since people think afr drops make the power drop with high ait's.

Talked about it cause +60C when doing poweruns will affect ignitiontiming due failsafe while one is tuning the map timingwise... not a good combination for correct tuning. So either keep it cool or shut down the failsafe.

Edited by TFD, 29 June 2016 - 08:16 PM.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

This info shows that the Water injection is more than capable to reduce the inlet temps 

this is a stage 2 sc car with a small rad in ear, 

but the graphs really show how bad the small rad is in a very short period of time with modest power reaching over 90 degrees

 

so massive gains are seen with water injection 

a stage 2 sc car with pro alloy rad setup would not see these temps as quickly as that 

 

but it also shows that if you spend money on a good WI system that a pro alloy rad is not required 

 

 

 

 

[Crabash]

Always inject after any intercooling. The power drop is quite large once the ecu starts retarding. So much in fact that modern traction control often uses ign retard.

[hughcam]

Would probably make more sense for harrop owners to remove the laminovas and charge cooling circuit absolutley and run proper water/meth injection. Loads less restriction in the inlet and great iat management.

[The Batman]

the problem is you are pushing the laminovas way too much.

 

i think we should go back to atomX days.. and look at cutting slots inbetween the laminovas to relieve the pressure (heat) build up before the laminovas.

 

but i am interested to see the before and after data of a harrop.

[smiley]

With these injectors requiring drilling in the manifold, it would be nice if the pioneers could measure exactly where they drill, and what injectors from what kit is used.

(To prevent fooked manifolds for the sheople that follow)

 

[chris_uk]

Are we pushing them too much? When i stick my finger in the headertank its only ever ambient temps. If anything, they are not really efficient enough.. There may be an improvement in their effectiveness if we drilled some slightly larger holes in the ends of the cores to speed up the coolant flow. Im sure faster flow rates cool the best.