113 replies to this topic

[Foxy]

I went through this...similar symptoms. Everyone said it was the battery, or the relay. It was the starter motor in the end.

[smiley]

 

You can bridge pin 3 & 5 to hotwire the relay and test the starter.

 

 

 

Can you confirm you mean 1M and 2M here?

With bridge you mean you let the wire in, and start the car normally with the button, then drive off?

Or does the bridging wire have to be removed/disconnected after starting?

[ee601]

Thanks for comments chaps.  My understanding is growing with each comment - along with my confusion !!

 

Yeah - same question here?  Which pins to short to test the relay?

 

Or could I use one of the other grey relays to test it out (without the auto-off function for the starter)?  Vocky, you mentioned rewiring one but I'm not sure how - your numbers don't seem to relate to anything I've seen yet:

 

[color=rgb(69,69,69);font-family:Helvetica;]Brown 2.5mm goes to pin 30[/color]

Brown/Red 2.5mm goes to pin 87

White/Red 0.5mm goes to pin 85

Green 0.5mm goes to pin 86

 

Earths looked fine but I rebuilt the one from gearbox as it was just a bit grubby.  One in the front looks immaculate - still, may be worth removing and refitting just in case I guess.

 

So, just to confirm... it could be:

Earths   - will rebuild the front one as well.

Battery - got a new one, no change.

Relay    - short it or try a grey one to test.

Starter  - remove and bench test from battery.

 

Anything else?

[Zoobeef]

If you look at the wires going to under the relay it's the brown and brown/red you need to bridge. Use a decent gauge piece of wire (same thickness as the brown and brown/red wires) and connect them together. The starter will turn (or not if it's tits) then remove the link again.

 

If you still get nothing then you may be able to bench test the starter in situe. Jump leads from battery, negative onto the block/gearbox, positive onto the terminal where the main wire bolts too. Then use a piece of wire also from the positive to where the little wire connects on the starter solenoid.

Just touch it and the starter should spin, or not if it's tits.

I can't remember how access is so it may be easier to whip the motor off and bench test it (negative cable to the body of the starter).

[Zoobeef]

Yes you could use a grey one to test, the yellow just has an inhibit in so if you press the start button when it's running then it doesn't engage the starter.

[ee601]

Yes you could use a grey one to test, the yellow just has an inhibit in so if you press the start button when it's running then it doesn't engage the starter.

Aahh, you mean I could use one of the 4 grey ones in the front by the fuses..?  (Sorry, car's outside and not dressed for going out now - just planning the attack for tomorrow..)

[Exmantaa]

A (normal) grey relay does not fit/work in the starter relay connector block. 

Just remove the yellow one and bridge the thick brown and brown-red wire to see of the starter turns or not.

Edited by Exmantaa, 02 January 2017 - 09:07 AM.

[vocky]

A (normal) grey relay does not fit/work in the starter relay connector block. 

Just remove the yellow one and bridge the thick brown and brown-red wire to see of the starter turns or not.

 

 

I have no idea where the grey relay idea came from, the pin layout does not even work

[smiley]

That is what happens when there is no simple and clear message with pictures to explain exactly what needs to be done.

Throwing links to a technical wiring scheme is not for everybody. Telling people "just to" rewire their stuff is nor for everybody.

Telling people to check for wires on something that when never disconnected before, is deeply buried on top of the wheelarch and a pita.

And to top it off, indeed the urban myth to use the grey relay as an emergency somehow sneeked in, but was never disputed untill now. (used for years).

 

So once more: Is the brown wire leading to pin 30 the same as 1M or 2M as printed on the relay itself? Is the brown/red wire leading to pin 87 the same as 1M or 2M as printed on the relay itself?

 

Once people like exmantaa and Vocky signed off on this, i am happy to make a dummy guide and put it in the guides section, so we just link to that in the future.

Edited by smiley, 02 January 2017 - 09:48 AM.

[vocky]

car wiring is really basic stuff to me and I sometimes forget that not everybody shares my view

 

I will add a photo in a bit

 

[vocky]

these are the two relays, notice that pin 30 has no where to connect to, this is the main power contact

 

 

grey relay

 

85 + 86 are the coil - power comes from the starter button

 

30 + 87 are the switched contacts - which makes the starter motor rotate

 

[vocky]

I will need to check on my spare loom to confirm where the wiring goes on a yellow relay.

[vocky]

yellow relay

 

1M = 12V / positive (for relay coil) - from fuse 7 - GREEN

2M = 0v / negative (for relay coil) - from chassis - BLACK

2 = 0v / negative (for relay coil) - from starter button - WHITE/RED

3 = ECU signal (for relay coil) - WHITE/BLACK

+ = 12v / positive (power feed for starter motor solenoid) - from fuse FL4 - BROWN / 2.5mm wire

earth symbol = switched 12v / positive - goes to starter motor solenoid - BROWN/RED / 2.5mm wire

Edited by vocky, 02 January 2017 - 10:53 AM.

[ee601]

Thanks Vocky. So, which 2 do we need to short across to test the starter? And does this mean both the yellow and the grey relays are involved in the starter? So far I assumed it was just the yellow one..?

[smiley]

The big problem is that the yellow relay is out of production, and the lotus version on backorder for almost a year.

So now we are stuck with workarounds. One of those is to convert the wiring from using the yellow relay, to the grey one that is still available. (As that is from a landrover)

 

Another (easier option) for now is indeed to bypass the relay with a wire as a temp solution to get your car going again.

 

Both options are partly described above. Wait for vocky/exmantaa to come up with all steps, so you don't fry your car's electrics.

 

[ee601]

 

Both options are partly described above. Wait for vocky/exmantaa to come up with all steps, so you don't fry your car's electrics.

 

 

Yes, absolutely.  Car electrics are a bit of a mystery to me.  I need to do as much investigation as I can today as I have my son staying with me who's pretty handy, whereas I am not... and he goes this evening.  After that I only have my own, rather limited ability to play with.

[vocky]

as a very quick test you can link the '+' and 'earth' symbol together, this will power the starter motor solenoid and crank the engine over.

 

to fit a grey relay instead then;

 

Brown 2.5mm goes to pin 30

 

Brown/Red 2.5mm goes to pin 87

 

White/Red 0.5mm goes to pin 86

 

Green 0.5mm goes to pin 85

 

 

Remember that the starter button will still work when the engine is running, so do not press it whilst the engine is running.

 

Main topic thread - http://www.vx220.org...-starter-relay/

Edited by vocky, 02 January 2017 - 11:35 AM.

[smiley]

as a very quick test you can link the '+' and 'earth' symbol together, this will power the starter motor solenoid and crank the engine over.

 

 

What are the requirements, next to the link? - Does the key allready have to be turned over? - Do i still need to press the starter button to commence firing? - Does the "link" have to remain there, or can/must be unplugged once the engine runs?

 

[ee601]

 

as a very quick test you can link the '+' and 'earth' symbol together, this will power the starter motor solenoid and crank the engine over.

 

 

What are the requirements, next to the link? - Does the key allready have to be turned over? - Do i still need to press the starter button to commence firing? - Does the "link" have to remain there, or can/must be unplugged once the engine runs?

 

 

The way I read that is the whilst the wires are in the starter should be hot wired to function immediately.  This isn't a working solution, just a test of the starter.  Have I got that right Vocky?  A functioning workaround would be the modified grey relay, but I have to ask - the pins on the grey one don't look like they'd fit..?

 

Meantime - is this the right pins to hot wire the relay?

https://dl.dropboxus...elay Bridge.JPG

[vocky]

as soon as the link is applied the engine should start to crank over, it is a 'hot wire' method - so do not leave the link in place !

 

Obviously if the key is not in the ignition the engine will not fire up.

 

Your photo is correct, however you can confirm it is correct by checking they are the two thicker cables. All the rest are thin 0.5mm or 1mm.

Edited by vocky, 02 January 2017 - 12:19 PM.