113 replies to this topic

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

 

myself and Harry are not so far away.. I'll message him and see if we can come take a look

 

I have a spare starter and relay we can try out

Wow, that would just be fantastic.  I'm great at making the tea and bringing the biscuits but a bit rubbish with a spanner (though I do have some!)  Even If I could borrow the relay to try out once I have the starter back in would be a huge help.

 

Thanks for the offer!  Just let me know if either of the above could be made to work..

 

 

No problem i'll set up a group PM

[ee601]

one other thing to check;

 

there is a black wiring plug down below the OEM air filter which has four brown wires, this supplies the power to pretty much everything in the engine bay. If these contacts have become corroded then you can get a similar issue.

 

Thanks Vocky.  You mean in front of the LHR wheel arch - is best access from above or below?  Or arch liner off?

[vocky]

probably easier through the nearside arch, it sits near the chassis between the bulkhead and gearbox side mount

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

you can get to it from the top if you have long fingers

[ee601]

Thanks chaps. I'll have a look when I can get in the garage (family commitments this weekend...😟)

[ee601]

Vocky - I have Stuwy and Taz here very kindly looking at the starter problem.  Not entirely sure how the wiring should be to refit it, do you maybe have a pic by any chance, just to be sure..?

 

[ee601]

Well, it's completely amazing!  I've just had Stuwy and TazN here for 6 hours (!!) looking at this, bit by bit removing items from the list of possible things at fault, and I have to say SUCH a massive thank you Chaps!!  What can I say?  Waaayy more knowledge and ability than I have, and such great tenacity as it wasn't simple.  And such nice fellas.

 

In fact it's not fixed, but there's a whole lot of (rather confusing) information now - I think Stuwy's planning to write it up as I could only follow it so far before I got confused..

 

Once again, a huge thank you gentlemen.  An absolute pleasure to meet you and I do so appreciate your help.

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

The Battle of the VX relay

 

formed part of the start the car campaign

 

Date 8th January 2017

 

Location Bury st. Edmonds

 

Result Decisive VX220 victory

 

Belligerents;

 

Silver Vx220 Empire

The Suffolk Try hard team

 

Commanders and leaders;

 

VX220 Battery

Vauxhall mokka

 

Strength;

 

1 Silver VX220

2 yellow relays

3 batteries

2 jump leads

 

3 plebs

4 sausage rolls

 

Casualties and losses

 

1 starter motor

1/2 an alternator 

4 sausage rolls

3 wills to live

 

Report

 

The battle of Waterloo was fought on Sunday 8th January 2016.

 

OK so the relay is fine, the starter is fine (was behaving strangely* but now replaced) , the wires react in the correct manor, the switched 12v switches with the started button , the battery is fine (tested with more then 1 battery). 

 

With the battery hooked up the car attempts to turn over but acts like it has very low voltage, as if its struggling. With the spark plugs removed the engine turns with ease on the started motor however slowly.

 

There is a possibility that the car has had a short and possibly for a while.

 

related/unrelated, the charge cooling pump is not working, wiring looks over complicated for just a pump IMO.

 

*The starter motor was attempting to turn the engine over with just the battery plugged in, no key even in the ignition?

 

List of events

 

hook up the battery, plug in the relay, multi meter the wires for the starter motor (starter motor not in car), everything behaves as it should. Test both relays in attendance. 

 

Discover brown not OEM wire. No idea where it is supposed to go (currently floating in engine bay, may have caused a short), it is attached to the wiring to the charge cooler pump group of wires.

 

Bench test the starter motor, works ok but noisy.

 

Starter motor back in the car. hook up battery and it attempts to turn the engine over, with no key in the ignition? starter motor back out. New starter motor in. Behaves correctly but only manages to turn the engine over once or twice before it stops and the relay starts clicking lots, as if there is not enough power...

 

Battery tested (again) 12.7V. 

Battery taken from another running car

Same result with fresh running battery.

 

Coil pack and plugs removed. Engine now turns over without stopping, but slowly.

 

 

 

 

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

oh yea i also run a new earth from the engine to the battery directly just to eliminate the earth potential problem with no effect to the symptoms 

[fezzasus]

if it's not pulling enough current with the other starter motor it sounds like a grounding issue.

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

if it's not pulling enough current with the other starter motor it sounds like a grounding issue.

but

oh yea i also run a new earth from the engine to the battery directly just to eliminate the earth potential problem with no effect to the symptoms

[alexb]

Are you sure that there is no other heavy consumer besides the starter that is operating parallel to the starter? You mention that it's possible that the car had a short for a while. When your press the starter button, it might be that the 'short' also gets activated and it competes for current with the starter. The only thing I can think of is a short in the water pump.

[fezzasus]

 

if it's not pulling enough current with the other starter motor it sounds like a grounding issue.

but

oh yea i also run a new earth from the engine to the battery directly just to eliminate the earth potential problem with no effect to the symptoms

 

 

But there are two earths, one from the chassis and one from the engine. Are you sure all grounds in the starting circuit run to the engine rather than the chassis?

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

no but the starter is bolted to the engine so earthed there as well?

[vocky]

I would guess the brown (non OEM) wire is the power for the cc pump circuit and should be connected to the big red wire on the starter motor.

 

The fact that the starter circuit works, other than it cannot crank the engine fast enough, would point to either the negative chassis cable has a bad connection or the positive red cable has a bad connection. There is not enough current to crank the engine fast enough, which is usually a poor connection of the power cables.

 

So back to basics - check chassis negative cables at front and rear of car, check positive red cable at battery and starter motor

Edited by vocky, 09 January 2017 - 10:48 AM.

[ee601]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I'm in London working all week but will have another look at the weekend.

 

Meantime - sorry if this is a dumb question, but when we hooked up the battery direct the smoke from the engine bay (as soon as the terminals were connected) seemed to be coming from the alternator.  So, if that's causing the problem, is it worth me simply disconnecting it and trying again?

[The Batman]

Have you shorted the cable from the alternator onto the intake manifold (only applies if it's a sc)

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

When you tried jumping the car with a spare battery and jump leads did you get polarity correct ?? A broken starter motor normally throws up all kinds of strange things

[Exmantaa]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I'm in London working all week but will have another look at the weekend.

 

Meantime - sorry if this is a dumb question, but when we hooked up the battery direct the smoke from the engine bay (as soon as the terminals were connected) seemed to be coming from the alternator.  So, if that's causing the problem, is it worth me simply disconnecting it and trying again?

 

The alternator is directly connected to the thick +12v feed coble from/to the starter motor, so if you have a short there it will affect the starter...

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I'm in London working all week but will have another look at the weekend.   Meantime - sorry if this is a dumb question, but when we hooked up the battery direct the smoke from the engine bay (as soon as the terminals were connected) seemed to be coming from the alternator.  So, if that's causing the problem, is it worth me simply disconnecting it and trying again?

we must have pinched a wire there is no reason why it would do that with the batter out the car and then in