59 replies to this topic

[Rosssco]

People talk about A20NFT and Audi engine conversions like they are something simple that a novice could do in a week. They are not. Even a pro engine converter working on such a project would take weeks and weeks (probably months) and there would be increased risk of parts failure, fitment/packaging issue, re-engineering things (like driveshafts), new bespoke fabrications (like exhausts, water pipes, air pipe routing). The list of extra complications (and hence risk + cost) is really huge. Most of all your new VX220 would be off the road and undrivable for ages, just when you'd want to be driving it!

 

Just looks at the project like the V6 projects ongoing (both 1+ year now), Dr Ed's A20NFT project (1+year and stalled) etc etc. Loads of them fail having spend thousands and thousands.

 

To a new owner, with no engineering experience I'd err on the side of caution myself and stick with the Vauxhall Z20LEx. In fact, that is what I did with my project.

 

Good points, but then the projects you noted are much more involved than just engine replacement. And at this initial high-level of discussion, I don't think anyone is under-estimating the work involved. I'd say you've pumped FAR more man-hours into your engine development (ok, that's Stage xxxxx) than would take to get the other options fully operational. So extracting a reliable ~350-400 bhp from a 30'yr old engine design isn't exactly a weekend adventure either..

 

I just mention the A20NFT as its just a variant of an engine already in a VX220 (so its 'sort of' OEM++ ), and thus the majority is 'bolt-in'.. I don't think the OP sounds like they want to get they're hands dirty, and knowing CS pricing (or any major 'tuner') the figures being quoted means that something different but OEM like the VAG package from Duncan makes sense. Plus people pay big money (and charge it back when selling it on) for VAG conversions on Elise / Exiges so done properly its not really going to damage the future value too much..

[Nev]

The A20NFT would have loads of issues with it if you tried to install it into a VXT (as opposed to a VX220 NA), which you are probably unaware of.

[siztenboots]

just to summarise , is it the best advice from the forum , that a new owner of a standard VXT should jump to stage 5

 

 

[Duncan VXR]

Thick end of 400bhp in a vx220 is not something for the faint hearted and a lot of restraint required I guess it depends on the end goal and no idea of previous car history or abilities but their is a cost associated to staged upgrades above single outlay I would advise going out in various stages and if big power / exclusively is a key deliverable then lots to look into at in far more depth 😊 The thread is an interesting one on the options and merits of each route DG

[mbes2]

just to summarise , is it the best advice from the forum , that a new owner of a standard VXT should jump to stage 5    

Car would be crashed within a month normally then never heard from again. Before I sold mine I was almost going to go gt3076r and standalone ecu.. but after a lot of track work it never stopped needing more money and I started to hate it. I guess the OP has been out in a high tuned vx? Road or track. Never ending pot of money

[Rosssco]

The A20NFT would have loads of issues with it if you tried to install it into a VXT (as opposed to a VX220 NA), which you are probably unaware of.

 

Please enlighten us (seriously).

 

I think it would actually be a better fit in some aspects with the slightly larger engine compartment at the rear..  

Edited by Rosssco, 06 March 2017 - 05:31 PM.

[siztenboots]

 

The A20NFT would have loads of issues with it if you tried to install it into a VXT (as opposed to a VX220 NA), which you are probably unaware of.

 

Please enlighten us (seriously).  

 

 

cutting a big hole in the boot for the turbo and exhaust? new gearbox to suit different engine configuration.

 

for some the non reversible bodywork changes would devalue it.

[CHILL Gone DUTCH]

Have you been in a stage 4 turbo with standard internals ?

[Duncan VXR]

just to summarise , is it the best advice from the forum , that a new owner of a standard VXT should jump to stage 5    

Car would be crashed within a month normally then never heard from again. Before I sold mine I was almost going to go gt3076r and standalone ecu.. but after a lot of track work it never stopped needing more money and I started to hate it. I guess the OP has been out in a high tuned vx? Road or track. Never ending pot of money

The tfsi conversion has needed no expense other than oil change, service & fuel since conversion 😊 Certainly any hard regular track work needs to budget some extra maintenance but hard to keep the love when things go wrong want that 2nd kidney 😞

[Rosssco]

 

 

The A20NFT would have loads of issues with it if you tried to install it into a VXT (as opposed to a VX220 NA), which you are probably unaware of.

 

Please enlighten us (seriously).  

 

 

cutting a big hole in the boot for the turbo and exhaust? new gearbox to suit different engine configuration.

 

for some the non reversible bodywork changes would devalue it.

 

 

In a turbo, you'd have at most a little hump..! The gearbox is the same, just the bell-housing (or just stick with an NA gearbox for shorted gearing). Other than the loss of about 2 litres of boot, there would be nothing external of note.. I guess it comes down to the quality of the conversion. Unfortunately no one offers anything in the UK.  

[Duncan VXR]

I would have liked to try the new vxr engine / box setup in the vx on decent standalone tbh I am getting geared up with the Rs3 5 pot tfsi conversion.......in my mid engineer rwd Renault 5 with DSG 😎 would be a far easier conversion in a VX but do fear the weight penalty over the S3 lump would show itself (183kg engine and 73kg box, not sure what the transfer weight is which I need to remove but still a heavy combo)

[Hopey]

Just to clarify, it's not a new car for me.  I've had the car for nearly 4 years now I think and not had a single "moment" in it.  Have tracked it a lot in that time too.  According to previous owners the car is currently running a Thorney Stage 2 tune of around 240hp, although I did not do that work myself nor have I have had it verified.  I don't for one second pretend to be some kind of driving god, but have plenty of experience in all kinds of machinery so am fairly confident in my own abilities.  That being said, I do want to be careful, hence why I am leaning towards the K06 rather than going for the full 400hp Garrett option.

just to summarise , is it the best advice from the forum , that a new owner of a standard VXT should jump to stage 5

 

 

 

[Nev]

 

The A20NFT would have loads of issues with it if you tried to install it into a VXT (as opposed to a VX220 NA), which you are probably unaware of.

 

Please enlighten us (seriously).

 

I think it would actually be a better fit in some aspects with the slightly larger engine compartment at the rear..  

 

 

Off the top of my head in 60 seconds...

 

1. You'd need a new gearbox (with the starter on the other side).

2. You'd need different engine mounts.

3. The entire VXT loom would need to either be replaced or hacked about dramatically.

4. You'd need a new ECU specific to the engine (in order to control the cams etc etc).

5. You need a mapper who could actually map this new ECU.

6. There is little or no room for the turbo, as it's natural position is occluded by the boot bulkhead and the subframe. Heat issue next to rear subframe.

7. You'd need a bespoke and complex exhaust to try and fit in the reduced space.

8. Reroute all the hoses for the coolant.

9. New inlet air hose system to turbo, possible space constraint due to its new location.

 

[TFD]

You can also runa GTX2860RS garrett. Max 360bhp and great spool.

5K for a manifold and GTX turbo is just absurd....

[Rosssco]

 

Off the top of my head in 60 seconds...

 

1. You'd need a new gearbox (with the starter on the other side).

 

Yep, readily available, cheap NA gearbox, or much about with the ratios available and install a Quaiffe diff (OP was considering this anyway)

 

2. You'd need different engine mounts.

 

From an NA. Potentally just the drivers side.

 

3. The entire VXT loom would need to either be replaced or hacked about dramatically.

 

No, you'd use a loom from an Astra VXR which are available, BadCop was able to modify to allow it to be essentially plug in.

 

4. You'd need a new ECU specific to the engine (in order to control the cams etc etc).

 

Yep, use the standard Delco E39a (from the Astra VXR) available from BadCop (not cheap admittedly) which does everything.

 

5. You need a mapper who could actually map this new ECU.

 

As its essentially an Astra engine, the usual VX tuners can calibrate it, including CS.

 

6. There is little or no room for the turbo, as it's natural position is occluded by the boot bulkhead and the subframe. Heat issue next to rear subframe.

 

Yep, you'd need to modify the rear boot wall, but on a turbo, this would be minimal from my measurements. Heat management is of course a critical issue, but bear in mind the standard arrangement is sandwiched between the bulkhead in OEM applications. It had decent heat shielding as standard, and the heating issues and subsequent protection mitigation measures are really no more than a high powered SC car with an exhaust manifold in that location.

 

7. You'd need a bespoke and complex exhaust to try and fit in the reduced space.

 

Not really. The most complex bit would be a custom turbine outlet elbow that would go down to the position of the standard exhaust routing. If you are sneaky, you can avoid use of a cat (due to the much better emissions performance), reducing cost and heating issues in that exhaust area.

 

8. Reroute all the hoses for the coolant.

 

Use NA hoses or slightly modify hoses from a donor car. I have a set from an Insignia and they'd pretty much fit with minor modifications.

 

9. New inlet air hose system to turbo, possible space constraint due to its new location.

 

Yep, but there's plenty space with the correct routing. See thread above for options here.

 

 

 

 

[Nev]

If you think it's that easy please go ahead and do the project, take note of the actual cost, and take note of the actual time spent. When you've got it all working, please let me know those 2 numbers.

 

Bear in mind the OP doesn't have the experience/skills to do the job himself. So he is intending to farm the work out to reputable professionals. One such well know reputable company has quoted him £20k for a Z20LEx + Garret setup. If you asked this same reputable professional to install a more complex A20NFT into a VXT it would likely be a lot more than that. And with good reasons, some of which I list above, but you seem to brush aside with a seemingly simple answers.

 

IMO, you simply can't ignore the complexity, cost and risk of making such big changes. If you do, then you project will have a genuine risk of delay or maybe failure. You only have to look at some of the "stalled" similar scaled projects on this forum as evidence of this.

 

BTW, I am a fan of the A20NFT, it's a great engine. However it's just that it won't be a piece of cake to put on into a VXT. I suggest you PM BadCop on here and ask how many (genuine) hours and how much (genuine) cost it was for him...

 

Anyway, I talked to the OP again last night and I think he's made his mind up on a Z20LEx + K06 setup.

Edited by Nev, 07 March 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[Rosssco]

A no stage did I say it was easy / piece of cake / piece of P*** etc...? Please point out where? My point was simply that there are other options available to the OP to achieve they're target outputs (the VAG drivetrain or the VXR engine just being a couple) on OEM components, (the VXR engine having ALOT of compatibility with an existing engine configuration / family) than sticking with the traditionalist route or a highly modified standard engine. I give up trying to make this point...

[Nev]

Sure I fully agree you never said that it would be easy putting in an A20NFT, but by not mentioning the vital fact of just how hard/costly/risky it would likely be, it could be misleading. You could end up giving the OP (and other readers) who have no experience such things the impression that it could be done lickety split.

 

And this is why I try to hammer home the full and likely reality of installing a completely different engine, exhaust, turbo, ECU, pipework, loom etc etc.

 

Edited by Nev, 07 March 2017 - 10:42 AM.

[Hopey]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts/help/advice etc!  All very much appreciated.  But as Nev says, I think I am going to go down the K06 build route now.  Should offer me plenty of power with the sort of driveability I want, plus allow me to retain the original engine, which I would ideally like to do.  Also the most cost-efficient option for me, which is important.

 

If anyone has any tips on a K06 build (especially the smaller details that are easily overlooked/forgotten about) they would be very gladly received!

 

One item that I discussed with Nev last night was cam profile.  CS recommend sticking with the standard cams, but I wondered whether replacing with high lift cams would get me some extra revs and keep the power coming for longer, and maybe even mean I can run the turbo with slightly less boost.  Thoughts?

[TFD]

I'll put the A20NFT on my watch-list 

 

For turbo fitting issues... :  I put a turbo inc. 3" exhaust on my 2.2 N/A and it fits. So i reckon it should as well on a A20NFT.