24 replies to this topic

[Munching Mike]

The government has announced that petrol will contain 10% ethanol - https://www.gov.uk/c...icle-e10-petrol

Vauxhall says that all engines except Z22YH can run on E10 but I the RAC suggests this will include only cars built after 2002 - https://www.rac.co.u...-it-affect-you/

Should I risk it, or should I look for 97 octane petrol?

 

[smiley]

On my tuned engine i accidentally put in E10 one, and it ran shite.
Maybe it's fine on stock engines. Maybe others can chip in.

E10 does not fare well in long storage, so make sure to put in 97 before tucking it up for winter.  

[TheHood]

On your standard car Mike there are no fuel lines or components that should be bothered by the corrosive effects of E10. I would guess the yh is not compatible due to some component of the direct injection system that variant has.

There is a remote chance that the cleaning effects of ethanol my dislodge deposits and block something but that's really not worth worrying about - that kind of thing could happen on old cars like ours anyway.

[TheRealVXed]

For those of us with Dutch software on tuned engines I suppose this will mean changing parameters and remapping to the new fuel?  Or is this E10 only going into "normal" 95RON and the 98/99RON supers will be unaffected?

[Strugs]

For those of us with Dutch software on tuned engines I suppose this will mean changing parameters and remapping to the new fuel? Or is this E10 only going into "normal" 95RON and the 98/99RON supers will be unaffected?

E10 will be 'standard' unleaded only. Super unleaded won't change..

[2-20]

I ve read somewhere that E10 is non officially close to RON 97.
Anyone to confirm?

[smiley]

That is the case for E5, not E10.
Oficially they cannot say that E5 is actually E0 (from a marketing perspective i think) , but if you lookup the specs of it on all vendors websites, and dig real deep you will see statements that the E5 version do not contain ethanol (for now).

Edited by smiley, 08 August 2021 - 05:50 PM.

[Arno]

That is the case for E5, not E10.
Oficially they cannot say that E5 is actually E0 (from a marketing perspective i think) , but if you lookup the specs of it on all vendors websites, and dig real deep you will see statements that the E5 version do not contain ethanol (for now).

 

Yup.. Clever use of the fact that E5 is defined as '0 to 5% ethanol', so even though 'E0' can no longer be sold as a product it's fine for oil companies to sell an 'E5' that they never add ethanol to..

 

Doesn't work on E10 as that basically has 5 to 10% ethanol added (to allow for variations in mixing and seasonal adjustment), so can't be reduced below E5 to comply to the E10 label.

 

For performance engines (eg. high compression or forced induction) E10 has the potential issue that it's blended from a lower grade base stock petrol (eg. 92RON) that reaches 95RON via the addition of the ethanol.

 

As the lower grade base stock tends to contain more volatiles and the ethanol burns hotter it tends to knock a bit sooner than plain 95RON so on these types of cars some timing or boost adjustment may be needed.

 

It's unfortunate that E10 was defined/set to be 95RON as  'combined' value and not something like 97RON as in that case you'd have the same 95RON base petrol with the ethanol added which would not have required this.

 

As the 'plan' is for regular petrol to go up to E25 or so, which many cars since around 2006 can/will run on, it will be interesting to see if the link to a set RON will be let go and just the 'E' value becomes leading.

 

It may well be that at some point 'E5' can no longer be sold though..

 

In any case, it's here to stay in some form, so get used to it.. Workarounds like fuel stabilisers or ethanol 'binders' will work for the short run, but it's not something that will 'go away'. Like unleaded fuel and the requirement for hardened valve seats, more ethanol may mean some physical modifications to older cars (eg. stainless tank, viton seals, etc.)

 

And with more EVfication of the car fleet in Europe, USA and south-east Asia and the shrinking demand for petrol, it's likely that something like ethanol or methanol made from waste products will be a popular alternative as a replacement fuel for the remaining hobby/classic/track ICE vehicles. Not sure the 'synthetic petrol' variants proposed by Porsche and the like will be cheap or easy enough to make to be affordable or easily available.

 

Bye, Arno.

[Munching Mike]

Thank you for helpful comments.  Although my engine is not highly tuned, the fact that E10 petrol does not store well (?the ethanol evaporates?) may push me towards 97RON fuel.   So far, this year, I have driven only 22 miles (to the MoT test and back, with a short run).

[smiley]

Here is a good read on it.

https://www.hagerty....ur-classic-car/

And with your 22 miles i would not over complicate things and stick to 97.

[Spitfire Engineering]

On your standard car Mike there are no fuel lines or components that should be bothered by the corrosive effects of E10. I would guess the yh is not compatible due to some component of the direct injection system that variant has.

There is a remote chance that the cleaning effects of ethanol my dislodge deposits and block something but that's really not worth worrying about - that kind of thing could happen on old cars like ours anyway.

 

One issue is the effect on the working copper compound in the pump itself, namely the commutator.

The increase in sales is quite marked with the introduction of Ethanol based fuels, way beyond the normal increase due to the increasing average age of pumps. Although this is not direct evidence the effect of older fuels on Ethanol compatible pumps is very evident indicating selection of materials for specific useage.

 

The fact that new pumps are classified as ethanol compatible would also suggest the earlier pumps were not.

Changes seem to be limited to the commutator and brushes but maybe the bushes are also different.

 

If you have an OE pump I would try to keep away from E10 and even E5 if possible.

 

[hairy]

Thanks for the heads up Gaz

[Ivor]

On your standard car Mike there are no fuel lines or components that should be bothered by the corrosive effects of E10. I would guess the yh is not compatible due to some component of the direct injection system that variant has.

There is a remote chance that the cleaning effects of ethanol my dislodge deposits and block something but that's really not worth worrying about - that kind of thing could happen on old cars like ours anyway.

One issue is the effect on the working copper compound in the pump itself, namely the commutator.
The increase in sales is quite marked with the introduction of Ethanol based fuels, way beyond the normal increase due to the increasing average age of pumps. Although this is not direct evidence the effect of older fuels on Ethanol compatible pumps is very evident indicating selection of materials for specific useage.

The fact that new pumps are classified as ethanol compatible would also suggest the earlier pumps were not.
Changes seem to be limited to the commutator and brushes but maybe the bushes are also different.

If you have an OE pump I would try to keep away from E10 and even E5 if possible.

I think Courtney are fitting one of yours to my car ?

[Cavturbo]

Courtenays used to use Walbro though their quality seemed to decline around 10 yrs ago.

[Ivor]

Courtenays used to use Walbro though their quality seemed to decline around 10 yrs ago.

Yep might have got that wrong actually, I'll check the email

[Spitfire Engineering]

Courtenays used to use Walbro though their quality seemed to decline around 10 yrs ago.

 

The problem with fitting a high power pump into the OE unit has two main issues:

First the connector on the top of the unit is not rated for a higher load, worth remembering the only reason the OE units are obsolete is because they kept melting and in the US there were several fires!

The old 4 pin delphi connectors were all replaced by a high capacity version some years ago.

 

Secondly the eductor pump is set to run at a specific return rate and if this is changed then the eductor also need to be adjusted.

 

The good news is for years the OE HP conversions were good for business, we reworked about 5 a year for nearly a decade  
Reported issues were fuel starvation (because there was no fuel in the canister as the eductor was not working correctly) loud roaring sound (this was the eductor fuel jet hitting the top of the pump unit) and poor starting (this was due to fuel in the lines returning to the tank due to poor conversion work.

I have no idea how many DIY and garage Walbro conversions were done but at least 50 had to be reworked and the pump replaced.

 

Not so much the quality declined but the rest of the world had moved on to turbine pumps. The US made positive displacement pumps are not Ethanol compatible by the way, the 255 etc, only the new turbine units which are made by Bosch I beleive are compatible. This is from the Walbro site and they should know.

 

Edited by Spitfire Engineering, 18 April 2024 - 09:41 PM.

[Ivor]

Good ingo thank you, mines just been reworked by Courtneys, new tank and pump

[Spitfire Engineering]

Good ingo thank you, mines just been reworked by Courtneys, new tank and pump

 

Which tank?
 

[Ivor]

Good ingo thank you, mines just been reworked by Courtneys, new tank and pump

Which tank?

Pro alloy iirc

[Spitfire Engineering]

 

 

Good ingo thank you, mines just been reworked by Courtneys, new tank and pump

Which tank?

Pro alloy iirc

 

 

OK, in keeping with the thread, try to avoid ethanol fuels as the tank probably has fuel foam inside.