766 replies to this topic

[coopa]

Maybe it's proalloy returning the favour?

[Dibba]

No, we can't run TB's on class A cars. The VX's were moved from B to A as the Class B had shrunk to only 3 other cars, a 340r and 2 S1 Elises with NA Honda conversions. Whilst I was happy that we could compare on power (once the race cars were to up spec which at Brands they weren't) but it made little point, the VX's weighed in at 850kg's (complete with cage and safety equipment) but the Hondas weighed in at 700kg's and there's no way we could get the VX's down to 700kg's so we moved.

Ah I see - makes sense. The S1's are very light especially if they are running with A frames as opposed to full cages and although the VX's will still be running at a weight disadvantage in Class A at least there are more people to play with in that class !

Looking forward to seeing you mix it up with the other big boys toyz in Class C too

Roll on the 24th of March

[Thorney]

All I'm concentrating on is developing the car in (IMO) the best possible way with the best possible effect. There will always be detractors (some with vested interests some without) and my response has to be the same, I'll just keep doing what I think is right. If it turns out I'm wrong I'll change what I'm doing and try again. If it turns out I'm right then I'll develop it to a point where I think it can't be bettered then release it, until then its all just suposition based on whatever data I feel comfortable in releasing. Yes its been a long time coming and yes its 'birth' has been more complicated than anyone foresaw but I've tried to utilise the people known best in their fields in developing the kit and I'm comfortable that everything that has been tried has been done for a purpose. The net result is a kit that I'm happy adds significant bhp to a VX (regardless of tune) and that is was will be released. Of course the other way is to release the kit and then deal with issues/complaints then....might be better for cashflow but its crap for reputation and thats what I rely on.

[minime]

Are you on Thorney's payroll?

errrr.... nope!

Just saying it as i see it to be honest mate.. thats all!

Some people just cant help themselves... proper chip on there shoulder/short arse syndrome etc..never have anything constructive to say about new ideas/developments...

G.

you may need to have a look at the history.....for me i have been instrumental in getting the following sorted for the vx..spax rs shocks, itg induction, my car helped in the development of the regal/stealth exhaust system(including exhaust manifold) it has also been used as the mule for eds/regal remapps for the na...also was the first to have the racc logic traction control system! there are other things that i have looked into for the vx too....

i approached a company about throttle bodies back in 2004 and they wanted to have my car for 3 months to develop a throttle body setup but at that time i wanted to use my car as it was my only form of transport...18 months to deliver a product seems to be a long time thats all

to me to get a decent amount of power from throttle bodies you need to move the power band up on the cams...240+bhp is possible but you will find that the car will be difficult drive below 3000rpm...

it seems that to get a decent linear power delivery then supercharging is the way to go.....

ps i may be short but i dont think i have short arse syndrome.....

and pps my other car is a porsche cayman s which is due for upgrades!

[gonzo227]

Are you on Thorney's payroll?

errrr.... nope!

Just saying it as i see it to be honest mate.. thats all!

Some people just cant help themselves... proper chip on there shoulder/short arse syndrome etc..never have anything constructive to say about new ideas/developments...

G.

you may need to have a look at the history.....for me i have been instrumental in getting the following sorted for the vx..spax rs shocks, itg induction, my car helped in the development of the regal/stealth exhaust system(including exhaust manifold) it has also been used as the mule for eds/regal remapps for the na...also was the first to have the racc logic traction control system! there are other things that i have looked into for the vx too....

i approached a company about throttle bodies back in 2004 and they wanted to have my car for 3 months to develop a throttle body setup but at that time i wanted to use my car as it was my only form of transport...18 months to deliver a product seems to be a long time thats all

to me to get a decent amount of power from throttle bodies you need to move the power band up on the cams...240+bhp is possible but you will find that the car will be difficult drive below 3000rpm...

it seems that to get a decent linear power delivery then supercharging is the way to go.....

ps i may be short but i dont think i have short arse syndrome.....

and pps my other car is a porsche cayman s which is due for upgrades!

I was just stateing the obvious..!!! Anything TMS seem to do.. you have a sarcastic dig...??? Ive not seen it the other way?? Incidently its not just on the throttle body thread!

Im not that technical or knowledgeable on engines etc... but i would say to get a good throttle body set up to be the best of both worlds (road and track use) alot of R&D is necessary?? Its not just a question of bolting things on&fingers crossed hope this works???

I remember a certain tuner Steve Broughton put a lot of work into the Jenvey throttle body kits he did for vauxhalls 2.0XE which proved very successfull in westfields / carterhams etc he did the same for vauxhalls 1.6 16v on throttle bodies.. nearly 240bhp! He used the MBE management with great success with Easimap software.. from cold start to track action.. faultless performance! Have a look at sbd's site i would say the results from there dyno testing speaks for itself..

Am i supposed to be impressed that you own a Cayman S?? Actually..Can you see over the steering wheel ok?? LOL!!

If you want to compare cars.. a mate of mine has a 360 Challenge Stradale! which is always on the track, and believe meis driven to its limits, both here and abroad, Spa, Nurburg etc..

G.

[luna_s]

ive got a corsa 1.4 from 1994, it almost falls over when i overcook it on roundabouts - does this count ?

[clipping_point]

There was an italian VX with TB:s and 250 HP AFAIK. However it wasn´t drivable at that level so they detuned to 230 HP IIRC. Jenvey TB:s and Emerald ECU.

Edited by clipping_point, 16 February 2007 - 10:37 PM.

[P11 COV]

ive got a corsa 1.4 from 1994, it almost falls over when i overcook it on roundabouts - does this count ?

I've got a Corsa 1.4 1997

( and it's bloody lethal on Roundabouts esp. after driving the VX and forgetting to slow down enough!)

[Timbo]

So G, you seem to know quite a lot about certain people on here considering you only joined yesterday!!! Coming on here and having "a go" and taking the p*ss out of long serving members wont do you any favours, heaven help you if you need any advice!! But then i expect you will just run to Thorney (no offence meant to you John), cause i dont think for a minute your a "new" member. T

[Arno]

to me to get a decent amount of power from throttle bodies you need to move the power band up on the cams...240+bhp is possible but you will find that the car will be difficult drive below 3000rpm...

Actually... That's the whole reason for going to individual TB's.

Mapped properly they should give a rock-steady idle and pull smoothly all the way from idle to the rev lmiter.

Of course if wilder cams are used they will have a stronger off and on cam feeling, but they should still not drop torque at low rpm's compared to the standard setup. Perhaps a little around idle and up to 1500rpm, but that's about it. (good 4-2-1 manifold with loooonggg primaries and secondaries can help to claw back torque too)

Experiences on the Elise with the K-series and throttle bodies (and Emerald ECU's) shows that you can run ridiculous cam profiles that make power up to 9000rpm before dropping off and still keep the car perfectly driveable.

Biggest requirements for this are:

- Spot-on cam timing (pretty much any wilder cam will need manual timing with either vernier cam wheels or offset dowels to be correct)
- Well executed ECU mapping

Get it wrong (like Lotus proved so well on the S1 Exige and 340R with the 190HP K series ) and it runs like a dog and only pulls in the upper rpm band.

Bye, Arno.

[cyberface]

++ Arno To add to this explanation, the real issue is that with really wild cams you have a lot of overlap, i.e. exhaust valve AND inlet valve open at the same time. At low engine speeds, with low gasflow speeds, there's a chance that flow reversal will take place (i.e. mixture being pushed back up out of the inlet valve). If you run a normal plenum system, then this backflow will affect the other valves, which are nearby - either poisoning the intake charge in the adjacent cylinder, or robbing the adjacent cylinder's fuel-air mixture. Either way, you end up with sub-optimal fuel-air charge in some or all cylinders at low revs. The individual throttle bodies separate each cylinder's breathing from each other to an extent, and therefore you can run big-overlap cams with clever mapping and still keep it all smooth. This is the big problem with high-tuned Rover V8s for example - the inlet trumpets are all squashed next to each other in the plenum, and any misbehaviour from one trumpet will mess up the mixture in the adjacent trumpets. For a nice example, check out some of the videos on Google or YouTube of F1 engines - these have monster overlap and you can see the clouds of petrol vapour hanging *outside* the entrance to the inlet trumpet... these things are tuned to perfection and it's all intended, but there's more to engine tuning than expecting your injected fuel to go straight into the cylinder with the air... pressure waves and resonance can make your fuel-air mixture end up in funny places. The ITB solution does its best to keep cylinders from confusing each other

[jules_s]

IMO its best to leave commenting on this until the price/results are issued..... I wrote my thoughts and stopped myself posting them tonight. I'll wait until (yawn) some definitive specs/prices are made public

[clipping_point]

I will use a plenum on mine and hope for 210-220 HP.



If 250 HP is the target race profile cams and TBs could be used IMHO.

If 300 HP is the target this kind of solution is even better than TB:s like on some all-out race engines AFAIK, giving a 100 % clear opening

[Thorney]

We use a plenum on the kits which is CNC machined and looks lovely. The problem with running long trumpets is the space we have before we hit the firewall but there's room enough for decent set up. Current dyno runs range from 185bhp (on our dyno) to 225bhp on another dyno so depending on what you believe the numbers are there. However, until its official (ie I can replciate it on multiple cars on multiple dynos) its still subject to confirmation.

[ChazUwe]

I really don't understand why people get so frustrated about things like this. Yes I would have loved to see TB's developed and available a year ago. It would have been great to see cars reaching 250 bhp and have a perfect torque curve. If these had been and were proved to be reliable I would probably have them on my car now! However, evidently this was not be be. The way I see it there have clearly been issues during the development process. These issues have obviously been very difficult to overcome (hence the extended delay) and to some extent may not be possible to get the BHP that was originally hoped for. So what! JT and TMS have put alot of time and effort into developing them and people just seem to knock them for it. Yes I am sure they aren't doing it just for the VX community, why should they? When people put time and effort into anything most the time the expect something out of it, whether that be profit, appreciation, sense of well being etc etc. Surely anything that gives us, as VX enthusiasts, more alternative options to upgrade our fun little cars has to be a good thing, doesn't it? Even if they only manage 200bhp that's still a nice improvement and I am sure they will sound awesome:) Maybe some of the individuals that do knock TMS and JT have reason to and that is something for them to take up with JT if appropriate. All I know is that TMS seem to provide a stirling service to 99% of their customers and are continuing to develop products for the VX which will help the car and community carry on for many years to come

[toreide]

.. a mate of mine has a 360 Challenge Stradale! which is always on the track, and believe meis driven to its limits, both here and abroad, Spa, Nurburg etc..
G.

...and I bet your Dad is bigger and meaner, too

[csl_freak]

We use a plenum on the kits which is CNC machined and looks lovely. The problem with running long trumpets is the space we have before we hit the firewall but there's room enough for decent set up. Current dyno runs range from 185bhp (on our dyno) to 225bhp on another dyno so depending on what you believe the numbers are there. However, until its official (ie I can replciate it on multiple cars on multiple dynos) its still subject to confirmation.

Hi John, thats with cams and stuff or just tb's and milltek ?

[2-20]

185 BHP with 50.8 mm dia tubing for the exhaust is not bad.

[alanoo]

185 BHP with 50.8 mm dia tubing for the exhaust is not bad.

+1, 185 BHP on standard exhaust and cams sounds good enough.... but i think this dyno was done with schrick cams and a more freeflowing exhaust...

[2-20]

185 BHP with 50.8 mm dia tubing for the exhaust is not bad.

+1, 185 BHP on standard exhaust and cams sounds good enough.... but i think this dyno was done with schrick cams and a more freeflowing exhaust...

50.8 mm is the diameter of the NA Milltek on the VX.

The stock dia on the VX is 1'' 7/8 . And for you information, it is the same dia as a 1.6 liter MX5 (1991, 115 Bhp ) and it is considered restrictive on this car.