766 replies to this topic

[~PHIL~]

It doesn't work that way, you can't just add them up.

Yes I thought as much, which is why I asked the question. What would you expect?

[Scotsdave]

Got more charts to go up, just wanted to get the meat back up now we sorted final details. Supply only kit price should be sorted today, working with Webcon to reduce the price a little (depends on their suppliers fixing some of the componant prices). You can change the filter withour removing the TB kit.

The manifold is a true equal length 4 into 1, Primary Designs aren't cheap but they really are one of the very best in the World at manifold design, the design process alone took over 4 weeks let alone construction.

I said TPS not TBS as in throttle position sensor. Does it need to be removed and readjusted every time the oil is changed?

Edited by Scotsdave, 31 May 2007 - 05:03 PM.

[Thorney]

Sorry, tired, no donesnt need changing each time. As regards power, without the manifold we've been running 200-210bhp so looking for 220-225bhp and then there is the high compression head so we are expecting circa 250bhp from it (and it'll go stragith into class B for the Lot Trophy)

[SteveM]

As regards power, without the manifold we've been running 200-210bhp so looking for 220-225bhp and then there is the high compression head so we are expecting circa 250bhp from it (and it'll go stragith into class B for the Lot Trophy)

I'm slightly confused now . A standard car with TB conversion will achieve circa 165bhp? The addition of a Milltek exhuast won't make a difference ie. a stage 2 n/a? 200-210bhp is achieved on cars already at stage 3?

I'm sure the more information that is released regarding what can/should be expected from the TB kit on cars already "tuned" will enable potential customers to make a valued decision

[SteveM]

We've never seen an NA at anything over 140bhp, most are 135-140bhp.

Your RR opening day had at least one standard n/a producing 145 bhp

[Guy182]

wasnt that when the strapping down of the car was an issue though?^^

[Thorney]

OK, some statistics. We've now dyno'd about 275 NA's and of those we've had 6 that gave 145bhp that were standard. Of the rest over 80% were 133-135bhp. As regards power maps on the upper levels of tune, yes you're right but we've not completed testing on lots of these so have simply released the stage 1 and 2 kits thus far.

[stevenflappy]

I know you are always really busy, but can you post a soundclip of these TB's. Must be great, but we only got a standing car, please......

[jules_s]

TBH John, I think you sometimes shoot yourself in the foot with you eagerness to get the info out in the open (ok 18 months was faaaaar to long to wait for it though) If you post 30bhp extra and 40lb'ft the graphs should reflect that...you know there are people about who will nit pick all your claims and TBH you aren't doing yourself any favours by posting stuff that contradicts itself. If a stock NA makes a measured 138bhp not 145 then state that....it makes the 25-30bhp gain far more clearer and doesn't make it look like you are grabbing figures out of fresh air/bending the figures to suit. Also you claim 210-220 on 'your' TB car (I assume rubbers old one given the plate)....that great.....If thats a stage 3 and TB's it's still great.....but the lack of the exact clarification just leaves us peeps who are considering this sort of upgrade a little nonplussed TBH. Anyway, I would like to think you know me well enough to know this isn't a direct dig at yourself and TMS in general.....it's just a reflection of my thoughts and a few people ive discussed the 'upgrade' path with for us NA owners. Time will tell I guess......I will drive all options before forking out that sort of wedge that's for sure

[SteveM]

The n/a figures do surprise me. I can't argue that a stage my stage 2+ n/a is much better than a standard car in more ways than one, and the relatively low figures of my car (152bhp IIRC) achieved on your dyno at least has a benchmark to compare against ie. +20bhp if a standard car is 133-135bhp . It does feel more perky than it used to My question is, and I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear at first, will a TB kit on an old school stage 2 Milltek'd car be more powerful than a non Milltek'd (standard) stage 1 TB car? Thanks edit: from my own perspective, jules has summed it up nicely. The confusion in my own mind hasn't made the upgrade path any clearer, but I would welcome a test drive if any are being offered

Edited by SteveM, 31 May 2007 - 09:33 PM.

[LazyDonkey]

OK, some statistics. We've now dyno'd about 275 NA's and of those we've had 6 that gave 145bhp that were standard. Of the rest over 80% were 133-135bhp.

I know i'm going to get flamed for this........ but that's just bollocks.

20% of 275 is 55 cars. So assuming that only 6 of them gave bang on 145bhp that leaves 49 cars developing what? Over 145bhp? 135-145bhp? Modern tolerances being what they are, are you REALLY saying that at least 80% of the cars are down on power? (mine must be a lucky one btw) As someone said earlier the rolling road day had a number of standard cars developing 145bhp and you said this on this forum some months ago.

QUOTE(Thorney @ May 14 2006, 16:54 )
We run 3 standard VXT's and 3 standard NA's and they all came up with accurate numbers (approx 197bhp at the flywheel for the VXT's and 145bhp for the NA's) so we KNOW the road is 100% accurate.

Wow - you must have happened across three crackers

Secondly there are, say 1,000 NA's in the UK - have you really tuned a quarter of them in 2 years?

For anyone that cares I've basically got a stage 2+ NA and i'm looking for upgrade paths- im not necessarily chasing BHP but some form of clarity and honesty would be good. EVERY time throttle bodies are mentioned the price is vague, then the spec needs to be finanlised, then the graphs are wrong - the excuses are endless.

Tuning is all about comparing the before picture with the after picture - the starting point matters not a jot. It just seems that everytime some queries a bhp claim (220bhp for example) the threads get locked and the answers never come. My spec of car would cost around £2k to mod and for that you get 11bhp according to the rollers at my local superchips dealer. And i'm happy with that..........mainly cos i saw what it produced before and after and i liked what i saw. £400 for an ITG cant be justified from a BHP perspecitive but myself and plenty others have done it. If the TB's dont develop as much as you'd hoped (initial posts said 180-200bhp IIRC) then who cares ? just be honest

I'm a passionate supporter of this wee car and i don't wish your business any ill feeling but the whole thing just has a real feel of snake oil about it.

Would love to be proved wrong but fear I'll just be lost in a sea of sycophantic responses.

Edited by LazyDonkey, 31 May 2007 - 10:41 PM.

[mandarinvx]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - and Crispy seems more than happy with the conversion

[markv]

I think reactions on the throttlebodies are a bit negative. If the graphs published are of an otherwise standard engine, than that is a pretty good gain. Why? Well, normally you would resort to throttlebodies when you have really wild cams in the engine and you get problems getting the engine to run idle normally. Pulses in the inlet go from cylinder to cylinder, and you don't have that problem with throttlebodies.

So basically, with the very mild 245 degree cams on the standard engine, there is no way you are going to need throttlebodies.

But what you do get is two things. An optimized intake for the engine, can't get much better than one throttlebody per cylinder and an enginemanagement that is really optimized for the engine.

So actually if the standard engine would have a good intake manifold and an optimized engine management, you wouldn't see any gains. But that's not the case. Looks like the standard inlet manifold doesn't flow very well, otherwise there would be no improvement in higher revs (as I understand from posts this is even the case with stage 3 cars).

So interesting would be this kit on a car with a normal flowing exhaust (not the standard piece), and one with wilder cams. Compared to Ford Duratec 2.0 with the webcon kit you should expect to see around 200bhp and a bit more torque for the 2.2.

http://www.webcon.co...ratec Flyer.pdf

Curious to see how the graphs are for the other stages, those should be most interesting.

Mark

[RCduck7]

OK, some statistics. We've now dyno'd about 275 NA's and of those we've had 6 that gave 145bhp that were standard. Of the rest over 80% were 133-135bhp.

Is there a reason for this difference in bhp for a standard NA?

Does driving it slow all the time make it lame and diving it fast (not when the engine is cold of coursse) make it wilder and so gain the original bhp that was intended?

[The Knobs]

sycophantic slags all say, i new him first and i new him well. just saw the word, and the song came to mind, anyone

[Crispy]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - and Crispy seems more than happy with the conversion

Indeed I am.

Stevenflappy -- you really need to hear one in the flesh. I've heard a recording of mine and it does it no justice at all.


John is the expert on this but I'll try and explain the differences from my perspective.

TBs aren't about "lazy" power & more torque (i.e. forced induction experience -- in any gear you can open the throttle and get significant pull)

Unlike an SC conversion, TBs give power delivery when the engine is at high revs. If you're relatively inexperienced (like me) this means a difference in driving style (which I found easy to get used to) -- you need to have the engine in and around 5k - 7k to get the most from it. Once you are there, you find you can keep up with the tubbies for example (they seemed to be in my way at the Chase).

My point is thus: It could be easy to worry too much about x BHP increase -- it's important, but not that important in this case -- what's more significant is considering the change in driving experience -- i.e. where the power comes in.

So the before / after difference is big, but not in sheer power over the entire rev range. A summary is: you are at lights, you pull away gently in 2nd, the clutch is fully out, you floor it. The experience between a stage 2+ & stage 2+ w/TB is almost identical until you approach 5k rpm -- now the stage 2+ is getting lathargic, but the TB car is just picking up -- in the TB car as you shoot past 5k and head up to 7k it keeps pulling and screaming such that you think it might not end. The stage 2+ car at this point is already into 3rd and suffering from being down the rev range ...

As I hinted above, I'm no expert -- if you're serious about getting a TB conversion I would take 15 mins out of lunch today, give John a call and fire your questions over on a one-to-one basis -- he knows his stuff.

Alternatively, if anybody can get to west london and would like a (less expert!) demo/chat I'd be happy to oblige.

[siztenboots]

... Once you are there, you find you can keep up with the tubbies for example (they seemed to be in my way at the Chase).

Odd, because I found on the L2B run, that HiP VX was noticeably holding me up through most gears and I had to feather the throttle , ( TB Stage 3 ? vs Turbo Stage 1 for comparison ) . I agree on the sound and having driven it myself quite like the setup, just want a bit more

[Crispy]

Should have said standard tubbies.

[coopa]

If you post 30bhp extra and 40lb'ft the graphs should reflect that...you know there are people about who will nit pick all your claims and TBH you aren't doing yourself any favours by posting stuff that contradicts itself.

Nit picking it may be, but if I was to spend almost three thousand pounds on something I'd like to know what it is I'm getting.

The tuning industry is full of false claims so I think it's not unreasonable to at least clarify the facts

[Karlosfandango]

Crispy, you have probably already said this but at what stage of tune was your car at before having the throttle bodies fitted?