766 replies to this topic

[Thorney]

csl_freak, on Jul 15 2007, 13:15 , said:

Hi John,

How can map be preset if you start with different setup (i.e. cams, exhausts, flywheel vss stock) ? or do you map basis setup ? i.e.different maps, but surely to fine tune it should go on a dyno no ?

There are different preset maps depending on what you have on your car.

[vpower_car]

Power Pack 6 all interesting & sounds good if not somewhat premature. However with the tissue of miss quotes, back pedalling, and postponed launch dates I cannot help but take this all with a pinch of salt, that is until we have seen / heard and been shown the graphs etc as I don't think the edge of my seat will support me long enough.

[jules_s]

vpower_car, on Jul 18 2007, 12:29 , said:

Power Pack 6 all interesting & sounds good if not somewhat premature.

However with the tissue of miss quotes, back pedalling, and postponed launch dates I cannot help but take this all with a pinch of salt, that is until we have seen / heard and been shown the graphs etc as I don't think the edge of my seat will support me long enough.

Test car is available at TMS right now

[stevenflappy]

jules_s, on Jul 18 2007, 11:35 , said:

vpower_car, on Jul 18 2007, 12:29 , said:

Power Pack 6 all interesting & sounds good if not somewhat premature.

However with the tissue of miss quotes, back pedalling, and postponed launch dates I cannot help but take this all with a pinch of salt, that is until we have seen / heard and been shown the graphs etc as I don't think the edge of my seat will support me long enough.

Test car is available at TMS right now

Ok somebody drive over there and make a video........!!!!!!

[Thorney]

We've had a demo car for some time. By all means come and have a go, a few have and all come back impressed.

[4drab4]

Thorney, on Jul 18 2007, 15:57 , said:

We've had a demo car for some time. By all means come and have a go, a few have and all come back impressed.

What is the spec of your demo car?

Cheers

[Thorney]

Its a stage 2, full Milltek, TB kit and cams.

[Crispy]

ChazUwe, on Jul 17 2007, 21:13 , said:

Any chance of a full review by Crispy now he has had them on for a while?

Hi,

Been quite busy with work and stuff recently

There's a mini review here http://www.vx220.org...ndpost&p=594676

The car is currently back with TMS having a few minor snags sorted but the summary is pretty clear: The car performs significantly better when you drive it in such a way that you leverage that performance. It sounds great. It'd be prudent to be fully aware of the changes it will make to the car. I would encourage anyone thinking of getting the kit to try the test car at TMS.

I hope to be able to write a full review at some point. In the meantime I'd be happy to talk to anyone about it if they want,

Crispy

[zezinio]

I am hesitating between the pack 6 and a supercharger like most people a N/A is sure better (driver feel) 275-300hp would be awsome with a sequential 6 speed gearbox. The Chevrolet WTCC car is a 2l 88mm bore x82mm stroke 64mm individual trumpets 12:1compression ratio for 280hp@ 8500rpm John how does pack 6 compares to the wtcc engine setup? a sound file or video like others asked would be great specialy for people not leaving in the UK

[davemate]

throttle bodies- the review: righty then, i have just been up to thorney to get my car serviced and to have a go in the deomonstrator. WOW- words cannot explain how much of a grin is on my face right now. thankfully John was there with me to shout in my ear that i was only giving it half throttle (more on that in a minute) and that i am only changing gear at six and a half and that i should hold it to over seven. I must admit i have never been keen on forced induction, the actual difference it makes to the feel actually isnt that much- and thats what i loved about it: its smooth, controllable BUT everything just gets there so much quicker. its not harsh or thrashy as all. the throttle- much heavier and a much longer travel, that would take a while to get used to i think, not in a bad way its just beacuse of the delivery system it needs to be changed. the kit- the demonstrator had the exhaust system, basic cams (not throttle body orientated) and the basic map. it adds around 30 hp to the standard car, but it feels a (hell of a)lot more. the think i like about it is the way you can just buy bits here and there- i know i am cheap but i want to add bits as i go, its probably the ony way i could afford it- adding in the manifold heads, cams, flywheel etc as you go is a really nice was of modding your car, and would probably make you appriciate the differences that the individual differences make to the car. the noise- different, not tvr burble, i probably dont know enough engine notes to comapre it to- its nothing like the standard na, or and vx i have seen. its a harsh noise, tuned, rough and ready. its not really like anyother throttle bodies i have listended to either- its one of those things you have to see for yourself. it sounded a lot louder than standard, but john said that some of the insulation was removed from the car, so that probably made a difference, its rated at 95Db so its all track friendy for the harshest of track days. The problem- john said that there have been very few people actually come and have a go in the car, this is something you realy need to do- its amazing, i am currently trying to work out how to buy the kit, and who i can get to fit+ it- if you can do this at home it really is one of the best things you can do to an Na for for money. there is so much talk on here about them, come and try it- as john has said before and has been commented on here- everything he has done has been done professionally and he hasnt let people down- if you doubt the kit have a go in it! john is clearly proud of the work he has done on this, and the development time has been well worth it. i am off to copntinue giggling like a small girl how much i have enjoyed it, probably sortly followed by dissapointment when i pick up my car after its service!

[GunnerGibson]

Sounds good :-) I have a few questions: 1) where do the bodies pick up there air feed from? 2)are the bodies mated to individual filters? 3)what size trumpets are on them When we bodied my mates mates Clio Williams it gained 20bhp and lots of torque by altering the trumpet length... funnily enough when we removed the filters that gave a big increase. We had the idea of devising a carbon filter box mated to an air scoop / filter. with the bodies being in the rear bay on the vx and facing inwards towards the driver just made me think lol. I do prefer N/A power... bodies are certainly the way forward... bought in conjunction with some lairy cams, pulleys and correctly timed in its hard to beat the throttle response... fuel economy was sadly somewhat lessened :-( We were running Webber Alpha management. And for those conssidering buying the package yourself to fit then all i can say is that I can imagine it being quite easy: INlet manifold off,throttle bode manifold on alter the fueling routes connect the loom fit the bodies themselves fit the cable throttle... (damm linkages can be a pain) certainly achievable if you have some car DIY skills...... as with all maps.. to get the most out of the car you will require a custom map. BHP and Torque does vary somewhat between stock engines. For instance a certain prosche engine varied = - 70 BHP from the factory stock... manufacturing imperfections and other minute tolerances all have an effect on the power output of an engine.... im sure the thorney management will be damm close though.

Edited by GunnerGibson, 06 August 2007 - 05:29 PM.

[zezinio]

Good for you my friend, It would be lovely if one of you guys could post a video to give others who can't afford to travel a few 1000 miles to test drive the car for 15mn or so. I'm sure that many people would be interested but the lack of clear information is still in the air. Still waiting for the dyno result posted earlier about different vx's na stock. stage1. stage2..... John's work is probably perfect as I presume but people need to have ways of verifying that. For instance the Exhaust manifold just by the look we know it flows. still saving for that. Can't wait.

[Crispy]

davemate, on Aug 6 2007, 12:50 , said:

throttle bodies- the review:

righty then, i have just been up to thorney to get my car serviced and to have a go in the deomonstrator. WOW- words cannot explain how much of a grin is on my face right now. thankfully John was there with me to shout in my ear that i was only giving it half throttle (more on that in a minute) and that i am only changing gear at six and a half and that i should hold it to over seven. I must admit i have never been keen on forced induction, the actual difference it makes to the feel actually isnt that much- and thats what i loved about it: its smooth, controllable BUT everything just gets there so much quicker. its not harsh or thrashy as all.

the throttle- much heavier and a much longer travel, that would take a while to get used to i think, not in a bad way its just beacuse of the delivery system it needs to be changed.

the kit- the demonstrator had the exhaust system, basic cams (not throttle body orientated) and the basic map. it adds around 30 hp to the standard car, but it feels a (hell of a)lot more.

the think i like about it is the way you can just buy bits here and there- i know i am cheap but i want to add bits as i go, its probably the ony way i could afford it- adding in the manifold heads, cams, flywheel etc as you go is a really nice was of modding your car, and would probably make you appriciate the differences that the individual differences make to the car.

the noise- different, not tvr burble, i probably dont know enough engine notes to comapre it to- its nothing like the standard na, or and vx i have seen. its a harsh noise, tuned, rough and ready. its not really like anyother throttle bodies i have listended to either- its one of those things you have to see for yourself. it sounded a lot louder than standard, but john said that some of the insulation was removed from the car, so that probably made a difference, its rated at 95Db so its all track friendy for the harshest of track days.

The problem- john said that there have been very few people actually come and have a go in the car, this is something you realy need to do- its amazing, i am currently trying to work out how to buy the kit, and who i can get to fit+ it- if you can do this at home it really is one of the best things you can do to an Na for for money.
there is so much talk on here about them, come and try it- as john has said before and has been commented on here- everything he has done has been done professionally and he hasnt let people down- if you doubt the kit have a go in it! john is clearly proud of the work he has done on this, and the development time has been well worth it.

i am off to copntinue giggling like a small girl how much i have enjoyed it, probably sortly followed by dissapointment when i pick up my car after its service!

Great review. I second all of that.

I would add by emphasising the change in the way the car drives and the way you drive the car. You definitely do get used to it, especially the longer revs and how much more time it gives you. The more you drive it, the more you get tuned in and the better it gets.

Crispy

[davemate]

one thing i would add is to second the things that have been said about the power delivery, where the na tails off and becomes breathless the throttles boddies are just starting. i am assuming that this is the reason the fuel consumption is increased- if you are raising the rev limit and the usable power band by over a thousand revs its going to have a big impact. i spoke to a couple of the guys at thorneys and they said its not too big a deal to do yourself, the throttle attachment is the hardest bit and its best to take the seat out. they were more than willing to help with fitting and advice. i would like to do the fitting myself (probably with help!) for one is a personal satisfaction thing, and it keeps the costs down. id really like to combine it with a lightened flywheel as i think this would increase the pickup a lot. i didnt get a chance to video or make any clips, i agree this would be really nice to see and i do hope some decent videos are put up for the more distant members of the forum. its going to be a while before i can afford the kit- service, insurance, new disks pads and tyres are currently calling which will wipe me out for a while, but i really cant wait!

[Thorney]

I have to say I've been disappointed with the response on the TB's (regardless of the effort we've put into them) and can only conclude that this is down to people not really understanding the releative importance of the gains they offer. With turbos etc its so easy to add larger hp (relatively) that perhaps people are expecting gains of that magnitude? The difference on normally aspirated power of 25bhp is nothing short of staggering but i guess you need to drive it to realise this? I'm also in the process of changing our NA pages on the site, we've come so far on the NA car now that stages are almost meaningless, TB's manifolds, different cams, different headwork are all adding so much power that in all honestly its hard to keep up and of course it also means its hard for us to keep track with dyno work etc. For example, the new (better and cheaper) manifolds are giving 10bhp on their own, the new heads are adding 12bhp, we have new cams being testing that add 12bhp on their own, add these to TB's and you can see where we are going, however its impossible for me to create stages from these without losing my mind in all the configurations. All of this has come from race car development where the regs have forced us to think laterally on power. We've also been working with a member here (whom I'll reveal as soon as we've finished testing) on other engine work which he has pioneered and we've proven he's done some fantastic work so I'm not ashamed to learn from that, all together it has revitalised the 2.2 for me to a point where our own SC kit (yes, we are developing our own) almost seems redundant. Yes, we need to do more videos (applies to all of our stuff really) but any video just wouldn't give it justice (sounds like marketing crap but its true) the noise is nothing short of intoxicating but frankly if you're looking at doing this for the noise then you've missed the point entirely.

[zezinio]

No, not the noise but the performance of the car on the road/track and if the noise can accompagne the performance than so be it.

None of us purchased this car for the lousy noise that it makes…but well for the price, how it performs on the road and the feedback that it gives you.

Header giving 10bhp, head giving 12bhp, cams giving 12bhp this is exactly what we want to know.

From an engineer or marketing point of view this would be posted as such:

On a stock car perform a dyno------>130bhp at the wheels for example
Each time install the part that you want to test by keeping the car stock but with just the part that you want to know how much Hp you can get out of it on a stock engine.

Remove the stock exhaust manifold and put the new one on, dyno------>140bhp at the wheels

Put the stock manifold back on the car, remove the stock cams and install the new ones dyno----->142bhp

Put the original cams back on, install the new head dyno ------>142bhp

Yes I understand that this is time consuming but this is how it happens in race car development I presume.

Secondly to develop a package you would

A. exhaust manifold+head porting(stage1)+schrick cams-->24bhp at the wheels

1. Install the new head on a stock car, dyno ----->142bhp
2. Install the cams on the new head, dyno ------->150bhp------>not 154bhp(impossible)
3. Install the exhaust manifold, dyno-------------->156bhp------>not 164hp

B. exhaust manifold+head porting(stage2)+schrick cams-->30bhp at the wheels

4. Install the new head on a stock car, dyno ----->146bhp
5. Install the cams on the new head, dyno ------->152bhp
6. Install the exhaust manifold, dyno-------------->160bhp

C. exhaust manifold+head porting(stage2)+schrick cams+Tb-->42bhp at the wheels
D. exhaust manifold+head porting(stage2)+schrick cams+Tb+compression ratio 11.5:1 -->50bhp


And so on.

Counting a 15% loss thru the tranny than the car would develop 205bhp at the flywheel for ex.

I don’t understand the point of developing all of these goodies, posting something about them if they’re not for sell and for what I understand they are. Than, clearly, yes, marketing has its role to play.

Its so sad because this Thread has been viewed so many times which shows people's interest for this kit.

we can't compare a race car with a road car but...

I'll keep

Edited by zezinio, 07 August 2007 - 08:06 AM.

[djegiant]

Excuse me if I have missed something but how much for this +25-30bhp kit? Self fit price I'm after.

[andyroo]

I think what most people want to know is how to get a similar power/weight compared to a stage 2 turbo, and how much it will cost. A small programme/database where you can select the different 'modules' that you want which then tells you what gains you would be seeing from your selection (and possibly a dyno graph showing results from that combination of products) would be a nice touch, and would stop people just adding up the figures and coming to the wrong conclusion.

[Steve Crisp]

Good points Zezinio. I think I'm pretty "average" on my outlook to the car. I spent £20k to buy it, and I've had it nearly 6 years - loved every minute, and would not consider selling. But like every other owner I want to "improve" it. The issue I have, is that I have to justify to the wife that I need to spend £5k in one hit - I can't! And yet anyone wanting to tune their Z22SE engine knows that the first-stage is to fix the existing weak-points. On the inside, the engine needs a lightened fly-wheel, forged-steel conrods, balance-shafts removed, rebalanced crank, forged pistons (prob.). On the outside you need new exhaust system - precat removed, and EGR removed, better input breathing. You've spent a LOT of money just getting off of the blocks, and had the car off the road for a few weeks. The worst point is though, that you've had to fork-out lots of dosh all in one hit - it can't be done bit-by-bit! Now the engines back in, you need a reworked head, better cams, throttle-bodies - you're heading for a £10k engine! I think that there are two basic types of VX NA owner - those that have a standard(ish) NA and will pay up to 4 or 5k to have a supercharger dropped on-top - job done, or those that really want to get into the works of the engine and go the whole-hog. The latter group need a way of doing this painlessly. To that end Thorney, I would say you should offer a replacement short-engine like the one you've just built for me - rebore, balanced-crank, forged con-rods and pistons, balance-shafts removed, lightened fly-wheel. You can then turn the car around in two days and the foundation work is complete - no more engine out! Steve

[Thorney]

zezinio, on Aug 7 2007, 09:01 , said:

No, not the noise but the performance of the car on the road/track and if the noise can accompagne the performance than so be it.

None of us purchased this car for the lousy noise that it makes…but well for the price, how it performs on the road and the feedback that it gives you.

Header giving 10bhp, head giving 12bhp, cams giving 12bhp this is exactly what we want to know.

From an engineer or marketing point of view this would be posted as such:

On a stock car perform a dyno------>130bhp at the wheels for example
Each time install the part that you want to test by keeping the car stock but with just the part that you want to know how much Hp you can get out of it on a stock engine.

Remove the stock exhaust manifold and put the new one on, dyno------>140bhp at the wheels

Put the stock manifold back on the car, remove the stock cams and install the new ones dyno----->142bhp

Put the original cams back on, install the new head dyno ------>142bhp

Yes I understand that this is time consuming but this is how it happens in race car development I presume.

Secondly to develop a package you would

A. exhaust manifold+head porting(stage1)+schrick cams-->24bhp at the wheels

1. Install the new head on a stock car, dyno ----->142bhp
2. Install the cams on the new head, dyno ------->150bhp------>not 154bhp(impossible)
3. Install the exhaust manifold, dyno-------------->156bhp------>not 164hp

B. exhaust manifold+head porting(stage2)+schrick cams-->30bhp at the wheels

4. Install the new head on a stock car, dyno ----->146bhp
5. Install the cams on the new head, dyno ------->152bhp
6. Install the exhaust manifold, dyno-------------->160bhp

C. exhaust manifold+head porting(stage2)+schrick cams+Tb-->42bhp at the wheels
D. exhaust manifold+head porting(stage2)+schrick cams+Tb+compression ratio 11.5:1 -->50bhp


And so on.

Counting a 15% loss thru the tranny than the car would develop 205bhp at the flywheel for ex.

I don’t understand the point of developing all of these goodies, posting something about them if they’re not for sell and for what I understand they are. Than, clearly, yes, marketing has its role to play.

Its so sad because this Thread has been viewed so many times which shows people's interest for this kit.

we can't compare a race car with a road car but...

I'll keep

Mate, you've described the process to a t.

However I'm working 70 hour weeks just making everything else move along nicely so I lack the time to spend a week just updating the website.

Steve Crisp, on Aug 7 2007, 10:02 , said:

To that end Thorney, I would say you should offer a replacement short-engine like the one you've just built for me - rebore, balanced-crank, forged con-rods and pistons, balance-shafts removed, lightened fly-wheel. You can then turn the car around in two days and the foundation work is complete - no more engine out!

Yeah but then we have the issue of the quality of the PX engine, we used to do head swaps like that, but so many were sub standard (cracked usually) that we gave up and actually modify the supplied head.

I'd love to just spend my time just developing this but end of the day I've still got a business to run and that means chatting to customers and making sure they get looked after, even the guy coming in with his annual service deserves a bit of tlc and making sure he's getting looked after right, I spend about 2 hours a day just chatting to customers.

I've got an engine, sat in the corner of the workshop that is the new one to be used to measure all what we've done from scratch, we done all the back to back stuff we can but sometimes it gets mixed up in time for the next race so we have to ignore that data. With all this I got close to just sorting the SC kit for the engine, we had one here for a couple of weeks and it was pretty good, I was encouraged by how much I thought we could improve on it and we almost did, but then we learnt more on the 2.2 and when you drive an NA compared to the SC version it really is another planet in terms of throttle response and end of that day thats what we wanted.

As I said, we're re-writing the NA web pages (when I get time) to relfect all we've learnt and to accurately portray what we can now do - its a lot.