30 replies to this topic

[Stu-7]

I'm contemplating a chargecooler upgrade and have read as much as I can on various threads. Notably:
HERE...and HERE (2)

I'm in a real quandry. Which one do I go for? TMS or Courtenay (or AN Other?). Here's what I understand so far (bear with me as my technical understanding of this is very limited):

The nature of available cooling to the mid-mounted Z20LET engine means it is susceptible to high inlet air temperatures. This is less relevant to fast road use and mainly affects cars used on trackdays. I have experienced this, particularly on hot days, when the ECU pegs back boost 3/4 laps into a session. Also, I am wondering whether some of the AMM replacements I have required, were caused by excessive heat build-up on trackdays (is this possible?). So, as well as reducing inlet temps in order to access sustainable power on trackdays, it's really important to me to know that heat soak / general cooling is as good as it can be on the car.

So, as I use the VX for in the main, trackdays, it would make sense to invest in a c/cooler upgrade. Looking at the available options, here's how I see it:

TMS Chargecooler
- Retains std intercooler, adds Chargecooler system. Additional weight implications(?)
- Reduces inlet temps by c30%
+ve: All my tuning work has been done by TMS already therefore any remap I need post-c/cooler fitment is FoC.
+ve: TMS within 1 hour from home to cure any minor glitches post fitment.

COURTENAY Chargecooler
- Removes entire intercooler system.
+ve: Reduces intake temps by 40%. Courtenay website claims: "On a car running at 240 bhp we dropped the temp from 73 to 34 degrees"
+ve: Weight gains are neglible as i/c system is completely removed.
+ve: Intercooler ducting is completely removed, enabling better engine cooling all-round.
-ve for me: All my tuning so far has been carried out by TMS. I guess I would lose any warranty I would have with them and any remap I would require, post-chargecooler fitment, would cost extra (?). Also, John would you still speak to me ?
HOWEVER - just picked up on courtenay's website that: "Our CS1, CS 2, CS 3 and CS 4 Tuning Packages now include a Rolling Road Session optimising fuelling, ignition and boost maps. All our prices include VAT."
-ve: Courteny are ferkin' miles away (3-4hr drive).

So...I'm not sure which way to go. Based on the limited technical knowledge I have gleaned, the Courtenay option appears to be best suited to my needs, based on the fact that charge-cooling is more efficient for the same given size. So, for the limitations on surface area cooling in the VX, this would make sense, no? <scratches head>

[Thorney]

A couple of amendments from us. 1. The intercooler temps measure down from 84 degrees to 34 degrees (as tested on a stage 4 car with and without the charge cooler) 2. The Lotus intercooler is very very good and IC's will always work better than CC's with airflow (which we do have), seems daft to ditch it the two work best in unison not isolation. 3. We're running over 330bhp on my race car and the identical TMS charge cooler still drops the intake temp down to low 30's, ie its engined to be scaleable 4. We've supplied over 30 charge cooler kits and not one has gone wrong 5. Yes, I wouldn't talk to you

[garyk220]

I've got a Courtney chargecooler and it works as advertised on the road. Keeps intake temps within a degree or two of ambient air temperature. It also reduces the intake temps, after a full boost acceleration run, back to ambient temperature much quicker than the standard IC. However, on track I've barely noticed any difference in intake temperature cooling. Peak temps were reduced by 5 to 10 degrees at most, from 70-75 degrees to 65 degrees (recorded on track at Knockhill and Snetterton). I believe the car held boost for longer with the CC in place, but still saw 'held boost' backing off from 13psi to around 10psi after half a dozen laps or so. Based on my experience so far, if you are fitting a CC in the expectation of knocking 30 degrees or so from peak intake temperatures on track, I think you will be disappointed. That's not to say I am unhappy with my CC system, but I think it needs a lot more work before it performs as expected on track. I have a few plans to modify mine, by rerouting the pre-rad cables and repositioning the swirl pot and pump from the bulkhead (near the turbo) into the air flow. An important point to bear in mind is that neither TMS or Courtenay has presented CC intake temperatures during sustained use on track. Measuring before and after temps on a rolling road or after a few 0-100 acceleration runs is one thing. But the only place I've experienced the ecu backing off boost is on track, where I've seen a peak intake temperature of 87 degrees. Until either conduct proper tests on track, I'd assume the above comments are relatively true for both systems. Again, not meant as a criticism of either organisation, just the result of most development work being carried out by tuning companies for fast road use, rather than serious track or competition use.

Edited by garyk220, 17 January 2007 - 11:03 AM.

[Thorney]

ooooh, I take offence at that I think we've spent more time on track developing all of our modification packages than we have on the road! An example, at Silverstone a stage 4 VXT, running 19psi of boost ran a peak intake temp at the end of the back straight (GP circuit) of 84 degrees. Ambient temperature was 21 degrees. When the charge cooler was fitted the same car ran a peak intake temp of 41 degrees. Ambient temperature was 19 degrees. The reason I tend not to quote this stuff on the website is that the statistical error in measurement is too variable. The ambient temperature being lower will have some affect (but not that much) but things such as wind direction, track temperature and the car itself (the ECU does not have a set value to retard but is a measurement of a variety of inputs) means that whilst we can quote the fact it drops temps massively a specific x degrees at y rpm is almost impossible to do accorss all cars. The reaosn I mention my race car is for the same reason, that runs a much larger turbo, running much higher boost but the identical charge cooler we sell and it still runs an intake temp no higher than 50 degrees.

[slindborg]

a lot of the CC performance depends on its design, much like a normal extruded IC (id never buy a plate IC lol) I had a collection of threads from MK3OC.com sent to me in word format regarding IC's and CC's Makes excellent reading and covers lots of areas that some miss out on. Ive attached it for thsoe who are intrested lol

[garyk220]

No offence meant John, and I was careful to say neither has presented. I had a good idea you would have plenty of data from track days If your system can keep Stage 4 peak intake temperature below 50 degrees on the Silverstone straight then I wish I'd known that before I purchased mine

[Winstar]

That's quite a good artical but I'll add my 2p worth as i have worked on designing/sizing a system, although it was over 3 years ago so I can't remember the exact equations*. The performance of Heat exchangers is very complicated depending on flow rates, differences in temperature, fluid properties, etc. However it can be simplified to a thermal effectiveness at given flow conditions. Where 100% thermal efficiency would mean that in charge cooler the air would exit to the engine at the same temperature as the coolant exits to the radiator. No CC/Rad is 100% effective so as the system operates the system finds an equalibrium, which is why under hard use the exit temp increases. (but not as much as you seem to be seeing Gary). So for me the TMS solution of coolers in series seems a good idea as in the best conditions you get extra cooling and in the worst I doubt you would get much heating of the charge air, i'm presuming it runs IC then CC. The only issue i could see is that there could be a reduction in transient response due to the extra components in the intake. Garry as i said above I real wouldn't expect to see peak temps as high as your seeing, without more info and doing the calcs though i can't say for sure. do you have a way of measuring the temp of the coolant in the CC circuit? as this would give you an idea as wheather it's a prob with the CC or the Rad at the front. Another thing is to remove the Front V as the more flow you can get through the better, although the front underhood on the VX is not very well designed either for Aerodynamics or cooling. When Opel AG did the deisel record breaking VX they did a lot of optimisation work on the under bonnet including intercooler position. Rob * I can dig/work them out if anybody's bothered.

[cyberface]

I'm not looking at doing engine work *yet* to my car but I'm still interested in the chargecooler as the first thing to do once I've got brakes and wheels done. Is it true that even if you don't remap for higher performance (or fit a larger turbo), the lower intake temps provide a real benefit in terms of reliability alone? So - if someone could answer my silly questions... the chargecooler has its own coolant circuit, with the intake-air heat-exchanger mounted behind the existing intercooler - but where is the other heat-exchanger / radiator to cool the chargecooler coolant down? Is it mounted at the front of the car with the other radiator - and if so, is it getting cool air or hot air that's already been through the 'main' engine radiator? If the chargecooler's water radiator is at the front of the car then presumably there's an extra circuit of coolant piping from the engine bay to the front clam. Where does this piping go - and is it accessible if it splits / blows a jubilee clip / etc.? It's evidently a balance between the increased reliability of the engine due to consistently cool intake temps, and the reduced reliability due to additional points of failure (new pipes / water pump / radiator to hole with road debris) - but John says not one of the 30 kits he's sold has broken, so perhaps there's nothing to worry about here Does the chargecooler kit require lengthy servicing, or is it a trivial job (like regular level checks and yearly coolant renewal)? Lastly, increased weight - given there's a few metres worth of pipe, two heat exchangers, header tank, pump and the volume of coolant, is it much added weight or is it surprisingly light? John - question for you - on the shop site it shows £2050 for stage 2 and £3550 for stage 3 - is Stage 3 *just* the chargecooler kit, and presumably if I've already got stage 2 parts then the chargecooler package would be around the difference (£1500)?? Sorry for all the questions, I'm an information / knowledge addict

[Winstar]

I'm not looking at doing engine work *yet* to my car but I'm still interested in the chargecooler as the first thing to do once I've got brakes and wheels done. Is it true that even if you don't remap for higher performance (or fit a larger turbo), the lower intake temps provide a real benefit in terms of reliability alone?

Reducing the incylinder temperature should reduce help with the wear as the VXT doesn't have oil cooling jets

So - if someone could answer my silly questions... the chargecooler has its own coolant circuit, with the intake-air heat-exchanger mounted behind the existing intercooler - but where is the other heat-exchanger / radiator to cool the chargecooler coolant down? Is it mounted at the front of the car with the other radiator - and if so, is it getting cool air or hot air that's already been through the 'main' engine radiator?

I presume it's would be mounted in front of the main rad for the best cooling and it would also be much smaller than the main rad so wouldn't affect the main engine system cooling too much.

It's evidently a balance between the increased reliability of the engine due to consistently cool intake temps, and the reduced reliability due to additional points of failure (new pipes / water pump / radiator to hole with road debris) - but John says not one of the 30 kits he's sold has broken, so perhaps there's nothing to worry about here Does the chargecooler kit require lengthy servicing, or is it a trivial job (like regular level checks and yearly coolant renewal)?

The CC shouldn't need servicing they use electric water pumps that run alot lower pressure than a mechanical water pump, they also have a lot lower flow rate due to the heat rejection required. With modern coolants it shouldn't need to be renewed for years.

John - question for you - on the shop site it shows £2050 for stage 2 and £3550 for stage 3 - is Stage 3 *just* the chargecooler kit, and presumably if I've already got stage 2 parts then the chargecooler package would be around the difference (£1500)??

Sorry for all the questions, I'm an information / knowledge addict

I presume the large difference is to fit the rad and CC the Clams have got to come off = Lots of Labour.

Edited by Winstar, 17 January 2007 - 11:07 PM.

[Thorney]

WInsars pretty much answered it all, however. Our kit comprises the charge cooler unit itself which sits in line after the intercooler then feeds directly into the air intake. There is a pre-rad in the front which acts to cool the water after it has been through the CC (its warmed by the air) and the two halves as it were are connected by 1" diameter 8 bar high pressure pipe. These pipes (2, send and return from the pre rad) run through the side sill in one continuous run (so no joins until the engine bay or front rad - no issues on clips blowing etc, and if they did they are accessible). There is a high pressure water pump atached directly to the bottom of the swirl pot resevoir which is mounted in the engine bay.

The system is complete sealed and acts with complete autonomy from the main cooling system so the car effectively has 2 separate systems. Mine was fitted in 2003 and we changed the coolant when we refitted the engine after its work this year so its a bit of a fit and forget system really.

Yes, the labour is an issue, front clam has to come off for the front rad and getting 1" pipe down the side sills is not exactly a simple process - whole job takes 8 hours or so.

New webiste is now up shoing a lot of this althopugh I need to reformat the VX220 stuff with new piccies and text the idea is there.

http://www.thorneymo...rbo_Power.shtml

[speedster]

John, looking good Few questions. Is the Turbo CC available in kit form? I don't see it listed as a separate item in the TMS online shop. Is there a power limit on this CC setup?

[Stu-7]

Thanks for all the responses everyone . An informative thread, which clears a lot of issues up.

A couple of amendments from us.

1. The intercooler temps measure down from 84 degrees to 34 degrees (as tested on a stage 4 car with and without the charge cooler)
2. The Lotus intercooler is very very good and IC's will always work better than CC's with airflow (which we do have), seems daft to ditch it the two work best in unison not isolation.
3. We're running over 330bhp on my race car and the identical TMS charge cooler still drops the intake temp down to low 30's, ie its engined to be scaleable
4. We've supplied over 30 charge cooler kits and not one has gone wrong
5. Yes, I wouldn't talk to you

Thanks John,
Interesting re: intake temps (I can only go on what I've been told as a reference point anyway) but good news nevertheless.
Off to check the post christmas bank account.........

[Thorney]

John, looking good Few questions.

Is the Turbo CC available in kit form? I don't see it listed as a separate item in the TMS online shop.
Is there a power limit on this CC setup?

Yes, comes in kit form and all of it willbe in the shop as soon as I get moving.

There must be a power limit to the set up it cant do everything but at 330bhp its still bringing the temps down to good levels so I think it'll go for more than the engine will

[cyberface]

I'm going to have to stop hanging around on these forums I had promised myself that I'd stop at brakes and tyres... oh well, got something to aim for in summer Cheers John - it sounds like a properly engineered kit and a wise investment even if not mapping for 330 bhp. I'd love to get a pax ride in one of your Stage 4 or more cars when I come up for the AP brakes - do you often have cars in with this level of engine conversion (or does your racer have a passenger seat?)?

[Thorney]

My race car and the throttle body NA race cars are both road legal (well...if you squint a lot and from a distance officer ) and we'll keep both with passenger seats for demo rides. In fact the throttle boy car may well our new courtesy car.....but only for people we actually think are interested in buying the kit

[Joe-Turbo]

did i mention i was thinking about putting throttle boddies on my vxt

[speedster]

Yes, comes in kit form and all of it willbe in the shop as soon as I get moving.

There must be a power limit to the set up it cant do everything but at 330bhp its still bringing the temps down to good levels so I think it'll go for more than the engine will

Ohhh! Slightly off topic (sorry Stu-7) What does 330bhp feel like? How does the car handle with that power? Would be interested in viewing your complete build specs

[Thorney]

In short...I dont know yet, I've done some road work and it spins the wheels in 5th Methinks it may need calming down.

[Alex Os]

I haven't posted much about the spec of my car on the forum before now, but given the questions relating to charge cooler options I thought my experiences may be of use.

My car has a stage 4 Courtenay map, Astra VXR turbo, full Miltech, VXR injectors and modified regulator, it has also been fitted with a Pro Alloy Motorsport charge cooler kit, which Pro Alloy have recently developed on there own VXT in conjunction with Courtenays and IMO the results are superb. Courtenay's have been so pleased with the results which they have seen from this set-up that they are now adopting this on all there higher power conversions.

http://www.proalloy....754&id=proalloy

The car is currently running at 295HP with 315lb of torque and the highest ACT's (Air Charge Temps) which were seen on the dyno were 36deg and the highest I’ve seen on track are 33deg (although the weather has generally been reasonably cool).
The really noticeable thing on track was how quick the recovery temps were. On the back straight at Donnington where you are at full power through 3rd, 4th and 5th gear the peak temps were consistently in the low 30's, but by the time I had finished braking and was exiting the chicane the charge cooler had pulled the temps down to ~21deg, and this was consistent lap after lap. How quick the system can recover the temperatures is very important because generally one of the draw-backs with charge cooler systems is there ability to dissipate the heat once they have got hot, as the charge cooler unit itself has quite a high thermal mass. This would normally result in the temps gradually ramping up if the car is driven hard for prolonged periods, like on track.
The Pro Alloy pre-rad is huge, it actually has the same surface area as the main rad and bolts really neatly to the main rad through ducting channels / mounting brackets which are incorporated in the pre-rad design. I think this combined with the high flow Bosch pump and large water tank are the main reasons why you get such good reaction cooling from this set-up. The pre-rad also comes complete with two Spal high performance fans which are neatly fixed to the under side of the pre-rad. All hose clips are also accessible through the front offside wheel arch.

I decided to upgrade my main radiator whilst the front clam was removed, and fitted one of Pro Alloys motorsport radiators. The water temps were fairly consistently running around 88-89 deg when the car was standard, but even with the pre-rad in front of the main radiator, and going from 200 to 295bhp the water temps actually dropped by about 5 deg.

Like the pre-rad, the charge cooler unit itself is very large compared to others I have seen and benefits from having five internal water cores. This means the cold water from the pre-rad gets five passes to cool the charge air travelling through the charge cooler unit. The unit bolts in a similar position to the original intercooler but sits slightly lower allowing some additional airflow through into the engine bay. It’s also really easy to fit and can all be done through the rear arch and side pod, so no need to remove the rear clam.
Pro Alloy have also designed a really neat a well engineered water tank which is shaped to fit into the corner of the engine bay just behind the standard water expansion tank, well away from the radiated heat sources within the engine bay, this holds an amazing 3.5lts of water. I’ve had mine powder coated black and most people think its an OE part.

When you use and live with the car from day to day you realise that a huge amount of thought has gone into the design of the charge cooler kit, there are loads of small details which when your using and maintaining the car you think ‘bloody hell, that’s a good idea’. Small details like the return into the alloy water tank is positioned just slightly to the side of the filler neck so you can remove the cap and check to see if the water is circulating, Courtenay’s have wired the charge cooler pump so that it continues to circulate the water for about a minute after the ignition has been switched off, the pipe positions have also been carefully chosen to be as un-obtrusive as possible.

In summary I would say that the charge cooler unit is outstanding piece of quality engineering which has offered superb results, this combined with the whole Courtenay experience, which I can only say is one of total satisfaction with there whole approach, offering a wealth of knowledge, which I guess you would expect from a company which has been doing this type of work for as long as they have, but also there dedication to getting the job done absolutely spot on using only components which they are totally confident are correct for the application. Top bunch of blokes too.

*EDIT*
Alex OS is employed by Pro Alloy who supply the Courtenay charge cooler kit, therefore his comments need to be read with that in mind.

[Joe-Turbo]

great to have more choice, sounds like a great piece of kit