55 replies to this topic

[MAXR]

What an interesting read...good post guys.

I was at Rockingham that day too. Good to meet you Max, Foxy and Partridge. Thanks Partridge for pointing me in the direction of Alan from Toyo; it was a step forward in the setup of my car.

I'm running 888s and found my turbo handled better on higher tyre pressures....I tried 24/26 psi (hot) followed by 29/31 psi (hot) and found the latter worked better at Rockingham at least.

According to Alan the optimum temperature for R888s is between 80-85 degrees C.....interestingly most peoples tyres didn't get anywhere near that....they were on more like 35-50 when measured on coming in to the pits. (although hard to know how much a tyre would cool down when coming in to the pits and it was a cold day)...so for trackday usage it seems the tyres have more to give, and would not start overheating (losing performance) except on all but the hottest days/longest sessions/hardest driving.

Guy182 (and anyone else interested): According to Alan @ Toyo, the arrow markers on 888s are apparently there to indicate where the minimum tread depth indicators are (the indicators are in the tread next to each arrow). They are to help determine if the tyre is road legal, not where you should be wearing the tyre down to laterally.

Oh and Max, your car is v quick!

..... now the question is what can I do to my Turbo to make it that quick?.... apart from a driver transplant

[MAXR]

What an interesting read...good post guys.

I was at Rockingham that day too. Good to meet you Max, Foxy and Partridge. Thanks Partridge for pointing me in the direction of Alan from Toyo; it was a step forward in the setup of my car.

I'm running 888s and found my turbo handled better on higher tyre pressures....I tried 24/26 psi (hot) followed by 29/31 psi (hot) and found the latter worked better at Rockingham at least.

According to Alan the optimum temperature for R888s is between 80-85 degrees C.....interestingly most peoples tyres didn't get anywhere near that....they were on more like 35-50 when measured on coming in to the pits. (although hard to know how much a tyre would cool down when coming in to the pits and it was a cold day)...so for trackday usage it seems the tyres have more to give, and would not start overheating (losing performance) except on all but the hottest days/longest sessions/hardest driving.

Guy182 (and anyone else interested): According to Alan @ Toyo, the arrow markers on 888s are apparently there to indicate where the minimum tread depth indicators are (the indicators are in the tread next to each arrow). They are to help determine if the tyre is road legal, not where you should be wearing the tyre down to laterally.

Oh and Max, your car is v quick!

..... now the question is what can I do to my Turbo to make it that quick?.... apart from a driver transplant

Yeah it was a great track day; I would suggest making sure you book a minimum of two driver tuition sessions for every track day you do. One in the morning and one after lunch, you will drive much quicker, guaranteed!

MAXR

[cheeky_chops]

Guy182 (and anyone else interested): According to Alan @ Toyo, the arrow markers on 888s are apparently there to indicate where the minimum tread depth indicators are (the indicators are in the tread next to each arrow). They are to help determine if the tyre is road legal, not where you should be wearing the tyre down to laterally.

I have used chalk in the past - wipe it over the shoulders of tyres. After a few hot laps, come in and the wear pattern will show if you need more/less pressure. Not much use on damp/wet days

[Stu-7]

Just to clarify those pressures as I had a couple of PM's about this.

On a cold day (anything below12/14'c Ambient)
Front: 21psi
Rear: 23psi

On a Warm / hot day - dep on sunshine / track temp
Front: 18/19psi (18 if it's a really hot day)
Rear: 20/21psi (20 if it's a really hot day)

All of these figures are for stone-cold temps, and are applicable to Toyo R888's and Yokohama A048's. Pressures for road tyres will be significantly higher.

They key is not letting the rears go over 30psi. Both the 888's and in particular, the Yoko A048's will drop-off significantly over this pressure.
At Spa last October (10-12'c ambient), the rears were going off after about 2 laps. A dodgy Halfrauds digital tyre inflator I was using was the culprit. I thought I had set at 21psi but they were 26psi from cold.
Once I sorted this, dropped them by 5psi or so, the car felt much more predictable and could do x10-15 lap stints. The lap times were over 2 seconds faster (according to my camcorder footage).
This is very loose amateur testing of course but, the facts speak for themselves.

Edited by Stu-7, 10 March 2008 - 10:12 AM.

[burnerblowout]

Just to clarify those pressures as I had a couple of PM's about this.

On a cold day (anything below12/14'c Ambient)
Front: 21psi
Rear: 23psi

On a Warm / hot day - dep on sunshine / track temp
Front: 18/19psi (18 if it's a really hot day)
Rear: 20/21psi (20 if it's a really hot day)

All of these figures are for stone-cold temps, and are applicable to Toyo R888's and Yokohama A048's. Pressures for road tyres will be significantly higher.

They key is not letting the rears go over 30psi. Both the 888's and in particular, the Yoko A048's will drop-off significantly over this pressure.
At Spa last October (10-12'c ambient), the rears were going off after about 2 laps. A dodgy Halfrauds digital tyre inflator I was using was the culprit. I thought I had set at 21psi but they were 26psi from cold.
Once I sorted this, dropped them by 5psi or so, the car felt much more predictable and could do x10-15 lap stints. The lap times were over 2 seconds faster (according to my camcorder footage).
This is very loose amateur testing of course but, the facts speak for themselves.

Useful guide Stu.

These are excellent starting points. But it must be emphasised that each track, driver, ambient conditions and vehicle set-up and performance will make a significant difference to the actual hot pressures on the day.

The key, if possible, is to check and set your pressures from hot.

Obviously, in a non pit-stop race and without tyre warmers, a good practice session will be able to determin the best cold pressures for each wheel. For the track day warrior, its much easier to set a good set of hot pressures between sessions.

[big dawg]

Thanks for the info will prove very usefull in the comming months. What sort of preasure are you guys using everyday ? I am running 24/26 which seams to be quite good atm.

[AlanM]

My name is Alan Meaker, I am the Motorsport Manager for Toyo Tyres (UK) Ltd. I was at Rockingham on the Saturday 1ST March at the LOT trackday and worked with a couple of cars using our R888 tyre regarding pressures and tread temperatures. What I would like to do is to offer some advice on tyre temperatures and pressures and how to achieve the best from our tyres when taking part in either trackdays or racing. The R888 has a semi race construction (very stiff) and a race tread compound. The optimum tread temperature range is between 85C and 95C measured using a probe type pyrometer, and ideally a maximum difference across the tread of 9C. The maximum hot pressure we recommend is 40psi. Camber angles up to 5 degrees are permissible but the final setting will depend on tread temperatures. It is advisable to have as much positive castor as practical as castor induces a beneficial camber change during cornering. I recommend that the tyres be put through 2 heat cycles before hard use. The pressures you use will initially depend on the weight of the car, too little pressure on a heavy car can lead to over deflection of the tyre and subsequent failure. Below are some basic settings: VEHICLE WEIGHT COLD PRESSURE HOT PRESSURE Very Light < 800kg 17 - 22 psi 22 - 29 psi Light 800kg - 1000kg 20 - 26 psi 24 - 32 psi Heavy 1000kg - 1400kg 23 - 27 psi 28 - 40 psi Very Heavy > 1400kg 27 - 35 psi 37 - 40 psi As a tyre gets hotter the pressure increases, this is due to the moisture in the air. The cold pressure you set to achieve a desired hot pressure will depend on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry. If the day/track is cold you will need to start with a higher cold pressure as the tyre will not get as hot therefore the pressure increase will not be so great. Hot pressures must be balanced side to side. Once the tyres have cooled you will find that you will have a difference in pressure side to side, if you have been racing on a right hand track you will find the offside pressures will usually be higher than the nearside. Changing hot inflation pressures by small amounts can be used to fine tune handling. Reduce Oversteer Reduce rear pressures or increase front pressures Increase Oversteer Increase rear pressures or reduce front pressures Reduce Understeer Reduce front pressures or increase rear pressures Increase Understeer Increase front pressures or reduce rear pressures Achieving the required tread temperatures will depend again on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry. You often here competitors saying “My tyres started to go of towards the end of the race”, this is usually due to the tread getting to hot. The tread temperatures are constantly changing through out a race, hotter when cornering and cooler when on the straights and cooling even more when you are slowing to come into the pits. Therefore the temps you record in the pits will be lower than those during the race. So if you record temperatures within the range given above the probability is the temps will be too high during the race. Increasing your tyre pressures will cause your tread temperatures to increase, more pressure stiffens the tyre’s casing which results in the tread having to do more work resulting in the tread getting hotter. Lowering your pressures will cause them to decrease. Inevitably changing one thing will affect other things, the whole set up of your car is a compromise between anything that is adjustable. Some of you are also asking about different compounds. Originally we only had one compound ‘GG’ (medium hard), but we have now introduced some sizes in a ‘SG’ (soft/wet) compound. This was done primarily for sprint/hillclimb (around 60 second runs) where the distances covered are relatively short and you need the tyres to work/heat up very quickly. This is not a compound I would recommend for race/trackday dry use as the tyres will go off very quickly. The sizes that will be available are: 185/60R13, 205/60R13, 195/50R15, 205/50R15, 225/45R16, 225/45R17. Another subject is the introduction of our Proxes R1R. This tyre was due to be launched at the beginning of 2008, unfortunately this has been delayed to at least mid 2008 but there is a good chance it will be latter than this. Regarding sizes, initially we will have a rear fit (225/45ZR17) but not the front (195/50R16). I hope this is of some use to you. If I can be of any further assistance please give me a call. 01933 414537 Best Regards Alan.

[Mr_M]

Alan - many thanks Very helpful

[danger7]

Alan, Excellent information and will be sure to apply your advice, how does your information apply to TR-1's which I'm running on at the moment. Are these tyres not really suited for track day work? I'm planning on switching to either the R888's or AO48's when I come to replace them in 2 to 3,000 miles time? Look forward to your reply, please PM me. Regards Ian

[Stu-7]

My name is Alan Meaker, I am the Motorsport Manager for Toyo Tyres (UK) Ltd.

I was at Rockingham on the Saturday 1ST March at the LOT trackday and worked with a couple of cars using our R888 tyre regarding pressures and tread temperatures.

What I would like to do is to offer some advice on tyre temperatures and pressures and how to achieve the best from our tyres when taking part in either trackdays or racing.

The R888 has a semi race construction (very stiff) and a race tread compound. The optimum tread temperature range is between 85C and 95C measured using a probe type pyrometer, and ideally a maximum difference across the tread of 9C. The maximum hot pressure we recommend is 40psi. Camber angles up to 5 degrees are permissible but the final setting will depend on tread temperatures. It is advisable to have as much positive castor as practical as castor induces a beneficial camber change during cornering. I recommend that the tyres be put through 2 heat cycles before hard use.


The pressures you use will initially depend on the weight of the car, too little pressure on a heavy car can lead to over deflection of the tyre and subsequent failure.

Below are some basic settings:

VEHICLE WEIGHT COLD PRESSURE HOT PRESSURE
Very Light < 800kg 17 - 22 psi 22 - 29 psi
Light 800kg - 1000kg 20 - 26 psi 24 - 32 psi
Heavy 1000kg - 1400kg 23 - 27 psi 28 - 40 psi
Very Heavy > 1400kg 27 - 35 psi 37 - 40 psi


As a tyre gets hotter the pressure increases, this is due to the moisture in the air. The cold pressure you set to achieve a desired hot pressure will depend on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry. If the day/track is cold you will need to start with a higher cold pressure as the tyre will not get as hot therefore the pressure increase will not be so great.
Hot pressures must be balanced side to side. Once the tyres have cooled you will find that you will have a difference in pressure side to side, if you have been racing on a right hand track you will find the offside pressures will usually be higher than the nearside.


Changing hot inflation pressures by small amounts can be used to fine tune handling.

Reduce Oversteer Reduce rear pressures or increase front pressures
Increase Oversteer Increase rear pressures or reduce front pressures
Reduce Understeer Reduce front pressures or increase rear pressures
Increase Understeer Increase front pressures or reduce rear pressures


Achieving the required tread temperatures will depend again on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry.

You often here competitors saying “My tyres started to go of towards the end of the race”, this is usually due to the tread getting to hot.

The tread temperatures are constantly changing through out a race, hotter when cornering and cooler when on the straights and cooling even more when you are slowing to come into the pits. Therefore the temps you record in the pits will be lower than those during the race. So if you record temperatures within the range given above the probability is the temps will be too high during the race.

Increasing your tyre pressures will cause your tread temperatures to increase, more pressure stiffens the tyre’s casing which results in the tread having to do more work resulting in the tread getting hotter. Lowering your pressures will cause them to decrease.


Inevitably changing one thing will affect other things, the whole set up of your car is a compromise between anything that is adjustable.

Some of you are also asking about different compounds. Originally we only had one compound ‘GG’ (medium hard), but we have now introduced some sizes in a ‘SG’ (soft/wet) compound. This was done primarily for sprint/hillclimb (around 60 second runs) where the distances covered are relatively short and you need the tyres to work/heat up very quickly. This is not a compound I would recommend for race/trackday dry use as the tyres will go off very quickly.

The sizes that will be available are:

185/60R13, 205/60R13, 195/50R15, 205/50R15, 225/45R16, 225/45R17.

Another subject is the introduction of our Proxes R1R. This tyre was due to be launched at the beginning of 2008, unfortunately this has been delayed to at least mid 2008 but there is a good chance it will be latter than this. Regarding sizes, initially we will have a rear fit (225/45ZR17) but not the front (195/50R16).

I hope this is of some use to you.

If I can be of any further assistance please give me a call.

01933 414537


Best Regards

Alan.

Alan,
Thanks for coming over and posting

I'm intrigued (and open to advice) about hot tyre temps. I haven't got a pyrometer should buy one really) but for the VX Turbo (850KG's wet?) I have found anything over 30PSi on the rears and they just let go.
For example take this session just at the weekend: R888's were cooked after 20 minutes as my local tyre fitters over-inflated them. When I got in the pressure was 34 psi in the OSR and 33 in the NSR. You can see the car was a bit of a handful under power:
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=JxAX5mHqKsM

After that session, I dropped this to 28psi hot and the car was significantly more consistent over a 20 minute stint:


Thoughts?


Proxes R1R

[Nikov]

Thanks for that Alan. One of the most informative and useful posts ever to appear on this site (in my opinion of course).

[slindborg]

I really hope the little triangle markers on the s side/shoulder of the tyre ISNT a depth marker as to get down to that you need to be well into illegal territory lol. And on my Hankooks the little triangles dont point to a wear bar either Pauls mentioned that they are the roll over markers so if the ear is to the tip youve got it right , any further and the tyre is too soft etc.

[AlanM]

Alan,

Excellent information and will be sure to apply your advice, how does your information apply to TR-1's which I'm running on at the moment. Are these tyres not really suited for track day work? I'm planning on switching to either the R888's or AO48's when I come to replace them in 2 to 3,000 miles time?

Look forward to your reply, please PM me.

Regards
Ian

Hi Ian,

The same will apply to the T1R, but what you have to bear in mind is that ' The T1R is a ultra high performance road tyre which can be used on the track, where as the R888 is a ultra high performance track tyre which can be used on the road'

If you would like to discuss further please give me a call.


Best Regards

Alan.

01933 414537

[AlanM]

My name is Alan Meaker, I am the Motorsport Manager for Toyo Tyres (UK) Ltd.

I was at Rockingham on the Saturday 1ST March at the LOT trackday and worked with a couple of cars using our R888 tyre regarding pressures and tread temperatures.

What I would like to do is to offer some advice on tyre temperatures and pressures and how to achieve the best from our tyres when taking part in either trackdays or racing.

The R888 has a semi race construction (very stiff) and a race tread compound. The optimum tread temperature range is between 85C and 95C measured using a probe type pyrometer, and ideally a maximum difference across the tread of 9C. The maximum hot pressure we recommend is 40psi. Camber angles up to 5 degrees are permissible but the final setting will depend on tread temperatures. It is advisable to have as much positive castor as practical as castor induces a beneficial camber change during cornering. I recommend that the tyres be put through 2 heat cycles before hard use.


The pressures you use will initially depend on the weight of the car, too little pressure on a heavy car can lead to over deflection of the tyre and subsequent failure.

Below are some basic settings:

VEHICLE WEIGHT COLD PRESSURE HOT PRESSURE
Very Light < 800kg 17 - 22 psi 22 - 29 psi
Light 800kg - 1000kg 20 - 26 psi 24 - 32 psi
Heavy 1000kg - 1400kg 23 - 27 psi 28 - 40 psi
Very Heavy > 1400kg 27 - 35 psi 37 - 40 psi


As a tyre gets hotter the pressure increases, this is due to the moisture in the air. The cold pressure you set to achieve a desired hot pressure will depend on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry. If the day/track is cold you will need to start with a higher cold pressure as the tyre will not get as hot therefore the pressure increase will not be so great.
Hot pressures must be balanced side to side. Once the tyres have cooled you will find that you will have a difference in pressure side to side, if you have been racing on a right hand track you will find the offside pressures will usually be higher than the nearside.


Changing hot inflation pressures by small amounts can be used to fine tune handling.

Reduce Oversteer Reduce rear pressures or increase front pressures
Increase Oversteer Increase rear pressures or reduce front pressures
Reduce Understeer Reduce front pressures or increase rear pressures
Increase Understeer Increase front pressures or reduce rear pressures


Achieving the required tread temperatures will depend again on the conditions on the day i.e. ambient and track temperature, wet or dry.

You often here competitors saying “My tyres started to go of towards the end of the race”, this is usually due to the tread getting to hot.

The tread temperatures are constantly changing through out a race, hotter when cornering and cooler when on the straights and cooling even more when you are slowing to come into the pits. Therefore the temps you record in the pits will be lower than those during the race. So if you record temperatures within the range given above the probability is the temps will be too high during the race.

Increasing your tyre pressures will cause your tread temperatures to increase, more pressure stiffens the tyre’s casing which results in the tread having to do more work resulting in the tread getting hotter. Lowering your pressures will cause them to decrease.


Inevitably changing one thing will affect other things, the whole set up of your car is a compromise between anything that is adjustable.

Some of you are also asking about different compounds. Originally we only had one compound ‘GG’ (medium hard), but we have now introduced some sizes in a ‘SG’ (soft/wet) compound. This was done primarily for sprint/hillclimb (around 60 second runs) where the distances covered are relatively short and you need the tyres to work/heat up very quickly. This is not a compound I would recommend for race/trackday dry use as the tyres will go off very quickly.

The sizes that will be available are:

185/60R13, 205/60R13, 195/50R15, 205/50R15, 225/45R16, 225/45R17.

Another subject is the introduction of our Proxes R1R. This tyre was due to be launched at the beginning of 2008, unfortunately this has been delayed to at least mid 2008 but there is a good chance it will be latter than this. Regarding sizes, initially we will have a rear fit (225/45ZR17) but not the front (195/50R16).

I hope this is of some use to you.

If I can be of any further assistance please give me a call.

01933 414537


Best Regards

Alan.

Alan,
Thanks for coming over and posting

I'm intrigued (and open to advice) about hot tyre temps. I haven't got a pyrometer should buy one really) but for the VX Turbo (850KG's wet?) I have found anything over 30PSi on the rears and they just let go.
For example take this session just at the weekend: R888's were cooked after 20 minutes as my local tyre fitters over-inflated them. When I got in the pressure was 34 psi in the OSR and 33 in the NSR. You can see the car was a bit of a handful under power:
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=JxAX5mHqKsM

After that session, I dropped this to 28psi hot and the car was significantly more consistent over a 20 minute stint:


Thoughts?


Proxes R1R

Hi,

You say you had 34 and 33 in your rears (hot), what were your front pressures?, as I said in my post by increasing your rear pressures will induce over steer, therefore by reducing them will reduce the over steer.

Please give me a call on Tuesday to discuss further.

Best Regards

Alan.

01933 414537

[danger7]

Alan,

Excellent information and will be sure to apply your advice, how does your information apply to TR-1's which I'm running on at the moment. Are these tyres not really suited for track day work? I'm planning on switching to either the R888's or AO48's when I come to replace them in 2 to 3,000 miles time?

Look forward to your reply, please PM me.

Regards
Ian

Hi Ian,

The same will apply to the T1R, but what you have to bear in mind is that ' The T1R is a ultra high performance road tyre which can be used on the track, where as the R888 is a ultra high performance track tyre which can be used on the road'

If you would like to discuss further please give me a call.


Best Regards

Alan.

01933 414537

Thanks Alan, the car came with the T1R when I bought it - so it'll take a few more track days before they need changing hopefully.

R888 would be my 1st choice.

Cheers
Ian

[dans]

Does anyone have optimum tyre pressures for standard Bridgestones for track work in about 15 degrees? Thanks, Dan

[Stu-7]

Does anyone have optimum tyre pressures for standard Bridgestones for track work in about 15 degrees?

Thanks,
Dan

Hi Dan,
I recommend starting the first few laps with Road pressures then gradually increasing the pressure 1 psi at a time. You'll never get away from shredding the edges of the trad blocks on road tyres however, gently increaisng the pressure will mean that the outer 50% of the tyre is used in a more progressive way.
You'll see if you over inflate them as the middle tread blocks will start to wear out faster than the outside blocks.

[duckula]

For the standard 17" VXT alloys (Bridgestone RE040) I run 24 front and 26 rear. What would you recommend for track days on these alloys/tyres? Cheers, Ste

[burnerblowout]

Does anyone have optimum tyre pressures for standard Bridgestones for track work in about 15 degrees?

Thanks,
Dan

Don’t think there will be an optimum setting Dan. You will find a range that will suit your style and car. The 15 deg ambient can be misleading, as the track temp, and more importantly what temp you can get into the tyres is the key. As Stu said above, start with road settings and work from there.

Beware going too high to save the tyre shoulders, handling will severly suffer and if you are driving hard they will wear anyway. With a road tyre you will find you will not stray too far from the road settings anyway.

The most important aspect is to check and set your pressures hot after a representative track session. You can expect about a 5 psi rise ( v approx) from hot to cold and with variations left/right and front/back depending on the circuit and direction

[jasvxt]

Mods any chance this could be made a Stickie on the track day forum please