81 replies to this topic

[snoopstah]

Can't argue with the graphics, but for simulation fidelity, Live for Speed is where it is at:



Probably the best tyre model in a simulation short of an F1 team's internal work (heat, wear, deformation etc.). Certainly not pretty, and the cars are fictional, but it's incredibly good. Hard to believe it is the work of three guys. One does sound, one does environments and that leaves just one guy doing all the physics work. His project before this was "Black & White", where the most he modeled was barrels being thrown around, so this really came out of nowhere.

Comparing anything currently available on a console to the hardcore PC simulations (be it LFS, GPL, GTR2, etc.) is pretty pointless. It both amuses and winds me up that the GT series of games claim to be simulations - it's about equivalent to a butcher's shop offering brain surgery.

Not that you can really blame them - games don't sell if they're too hard. Driving a high-performance car on the very limits of grip isn't something that you can pick up in 5 laps - even if you're already an extremely proficient and experienced driver, merely adapting to the nuances of a new car takes many hours of track time, before you even start to make adjustments to make it drive how you want it. A console game that came even minutely close to this level of detail would be a commercial disaster. If you count up every single sale of LFS, GPL, GTR2, rFactor, and so on, it would probably still not equal the equivalent of a single month of sales of an arcade game like GT4, Forza, etc.

Of course, I haven't played GT5, so it might completely turn the tables and end up being an all-out hardcore simulator. But I doubt it - Sony are struggling enough already with the PS3, and they need GT5 to be a big seller, and that means appealing to the lowest common denominator.

P.S. Have you tried netKar Pro? It's up their with LFS's tyre model - it doesn't do sidewall deformation but I find the tyre dirtiness more realistic than LFS's rather crude model. But they're both very impressive. Sadly development seems to have been discontinued

[danVXT]

There's no simple answer to the question 'is it slower or faster'. It depends on what level of wireless technology in use, and what level of cable technology in use. However, rest assured that the slowest wireless stuff you can easily buy these days is still much faster than the fastest broadband connection you can easily buy these days - so don't worry about it

I'd definitely choose wireless simply for convenience - there is no technical problem running a cable from one side of the house to the other (unless you live in Buckingham Palace), it's just a hassle and looks ugly.

best way to look at it is:-

you will only ever be as fast as your slowest connection which is nearly always bound to be the broadband connection, so using wireless wouldn't be a problem... i've not had one issue since using my PS3 with wireless router

[speedyK]

Comparing anything currently available on a console to the hardcore PC simulations (be it LFS, GPL, GTR2, etc.) is pretty pointless. It both amuses and winds me up that the GT series of games claim to be simulations - it's about equivalent to a butcher's shop offering brain surgery.

Not that you can really blame them - games don't sell if they're too hard.

I got sick of computer games years ago on the Mac. Every new game seemed to demand a better processor or graphics card to allow smooth play – very frusrtrating. Gave up on them and got a Nintendo 64. Oh the bliss that you knew it would actually work properly. PS2 was a big step forward and PS3 is yet one more. The hassle-free aspect is its appeal.

Not that GT5 is that easy – still not got round to trying to find another 2 secs in the F430 – IMO, it's bloody hard!

[speedyK]

Finally made it! (Had to change from professional mode to standard though – but switched off traction controlmand all aids). Now I can start tuning and go online

[Ferguson]

I got sick of computer games years ago on the Mac.

"Games" + "Mac". That was your problem right there!

The nice thing about Live for Speed is the extremely modest computer requirements. It has always run well on my notebooks and certainly never required mega CPU or GPU processing power, which makes its simulation performance all the more impressive.

[Crimson_Killa]

Is Wireless much slower then? I thought they were the same? If I go for ethernet cables to from upstrairs to downstairs (complete opposite ends and corners of the house), does the signal degrade with longer cables?

There's no simple answer to the question 'is it slower or faster'. It depends on what level of wireless technology in use, and what level of cable technology in use. However, rest assured that the slowest wireless stuff you can easily buy these days is still much faster than the fastest broadband connection you can easily buy these days - so don't worry about it

I'd definitely choose wireless simply for convenience - there is no technical problem running a cable from one side of the house to the other (unless you live in Buckingham Palace), it's just a hassle and looks ugly.

Thats not 100% accurate,

If you are running a 11.b protocal then you are running at 11Mbps which is 1.1 megabytes, my broadband runs at 18mbps (20 if you believe the advertising) which means my connection is quicker than the wireless (well not true as im on 54.g but you know what im saying)

Also thing to concider. if you dont have a 100% connection, due to walls or whatever then your connection can be effected, like i said im on 54g but if i go a little too far away from the router the connection drops to half and i only get about 24Mbps, still just faster than my net connection though.

the other thing is that the PS3 wont demand the full connection, basicaly it will be programmed to grab a specific amount for each game (dependant on the needs) and it wont be the full amount.

Anyway hope that helps.

edit

Just re-read your post and you put easily available, as 11.b was available about 2 yrs ago its possible that people have had the same kit since then

Edited by Crimson_Killa, 01 April 2008 - 07:18 AM.

[snoopstah]

I got sick of computer games years ago on the Mac. Every new game seemed to demand a better processor or graphics card to allow smooth play – very frusrtrating. Gave up on them and got a Nintendo 64. Oh the bliss that you knew it would actually work properly. PS2 was a big step forward and PS3 is yet one more. The hassle-free aspect is its appeal.

Absolutely - that's the huge advantage of consoles over PCs - playing a PC game often means you need to buy a decent-specced PC, spend hours faffing around with graphics and sound drivers, changing settings, configuring, wondering why it locks up, wondering why it decided to drop 10 frames just when you were about to win, etc. And repeat again when the next game comes out. Playing a console game involves putting the disc in the drive, and you're done!

That's why a friend of mine set up this place - it gives you the opportunity to play the best PC simulations on purpose-designed equipment which is far better than even the most dedicated home user is likely to have. From the customer point of view it's like karting - you arrive, you drive (along with 9 of your friends), and if you're good enough you get a trophy to go home with. The customer never sees any of the technical side of things at all, it's all dealt with for you - most customers don't know the name of the simulation in use, or even the fact that it's a Windows PC behind the scenes.

Brings the console ease-of-use (or in fact, even easier) together with the PC sim realism - plus you get to sit in something like this:

[snoopstah]

Thats not 100% accurate

It's not even close to 100% accurate, but being 100% accurate would take several tens of thousands of words. It's 99% accurate for the purposes of this discussion

If you are running a 11.b protocal then you are running at 11Mbps which is 1.1 megabytes, my broadband runs at 18mbps (20 if you believe the advertising) which means my connection is quicker than the wireless (well not true as im on 54.g but you know what im saying)

While 802.11b is theoretically 11Mbps, protocol overheads mean you drop to around 6Mbps maximum throughput via TCP/IP, and that's before you enable encryption, which typically adds a little more overhead. So it's even worse than the figures claim. 802.11g has similar issues - although it claims to be 54Mbps, actual throughput isn't more than ~25Mbps (and that's with perfect signal).

the other thing is that the PS3 wont demand the full connection, basicaly it will be programmed to grab a specific amount for each game (dependant on the needs) and it wont be the full amount.

Depends what you're doing - playing online then no, it'll take a tiny fraction of that, any in any case the amount of data that you can send/receive is far less important than the time it takes for the data to traverse from your machine to the other machine. But if you are downloading updates, demos, etc., then it should use close to the full potential of your broadband connection.

Just re-read your post and you put easily available, as 11.b was available about 2 yrs ago its possible that people have had the same kit since then

Ash doesn't have any wireless kit currently, so he'd be hard-pushed to find 802.11b kit these days

[danVXT]

Is Wireless much slower then? I thought they were the same? If I go for ethernet cables to from upstrairs to downstairs (complete opposite ends and corners of the house), does the signal degrade with longer cables?

the signal will degrade once the cable is over 100metres until you can't get a connection at all, usually though you will be able to connect at a little distance over but at 10MB instead of 100MB

i'd just go for wireless and try to position your router as close as poss, mine is in the room above and i get a 54MB wireless connection, and my broadband runs at approx 8MB

[Ash]

Cheers for all the replies guys, I'm fairly happy that a wireless router will do the job for me (when I get my PS3). As for sims/games, I think GT is so succesful as people have said, because although it isn't exactly easy it something that can be mastered, but an amateur like me. Live for speed and the like frustrate me, because I don't have the time to dedicate to learning how to do it properly. So for my purposes the GT series are pefect and I cant wait to get GT5 and start to challenge some players online. On a different note (as this has gone on and off topic like mad!! ), the simulation place Snoop mentioned is awsome, we should so that again someday, a bunch of us (including Snoop) went there a while ago and it was great!!!!

[JG]

Ash, i would go for Forsa on the XBox. I did and am delighted. Fantastic online services Great gameplay Great dinamics Good graphics excellent sound ( i love the bridges) No stupid tyre screeching. And it will cost you a lot less. And if you do want to play other games, the Xbox has the PS£ licked.

[speedyK]

Ash, i would go for Forsa on the XBox.

The XBox is the dark side! (And also failed HD-DVD technology).

PS3 with Blu-Ray is the future!



I now have to work on the geo settings for my tuned Elise 111R in GT5 Prologue – serious lift-off oversteer at the mo...

[Crimson_Killa]

Ash, i would go for Forsa on the XBox.

The XBox is the dark side! (And also failed HD-DVD technology).

PS3 with Blu-Ray is the future!



I now have to work on the geo settings for my tuned Elise 111R in GT5 Prologue – serious lift-off oversteer at the mo...

thats the otehr thing.

GT5 Pro only has tuning

on Forza you can buy upgrades (with in game cash) and litraly max out your car!

[Kip'n'Srin]

Ash, i would go for Forsa on the XBox.

The XBox is the dark side! (And also failed HD-DVD technology).

PS3 with Blu-Ray is the future!



I now have to work on the geo settings for my tuned Elise 111R in GT5 Prologue – serious lift-off oversteer at the mo...

thats the otehr thing.

GT5 Pro only has tuning

on Forza you can buy upgrades (with in game cash) and litraly max out your car!

This is only the "paid for Demo" and the actual game, when it comes out will be different.

[crsnwby]

I loved forza when it came out but aint played it for ages as I cant be bothered with online and loads of yank clowns cheating or simply ramming you off.. the single player is just not long enough... not enough tracks, lots of cars but most of them are pointless, so for the single palyer its a bit borring after a while.

Whereas GT5 has same old game engine good graphics and should last feking ages in single player if the others are to go by, with lods of tracks and cars.

I just wish they would have just made a new engine or just nicked forzas and ramped up the GFX with loads of cars and tracks.

Problem I'v got now is finding 200 notes to buy a logitech G25.. aahhhh.

[speedyK]

Problem I'v got now is finding 200 notes to buy a logitech G25.. aahhhh.

Well worth it – you can apply braking pressure as in a real car – and it really does make a difference if you push that bit harder to get maximum braking.

I broke the (plastic) brake pedal connection on my Driving Force set and my Driving Force pro one. Also, having the working clutch and H-shift gear lever is a big plus too. The G25 is fantastic – and you can take the modular pedals apart and even invert them. I even modded mine to match my Exige's pedals:



Then built a cockpit using a few old Elise bits:

Edited by speedyK, 01 April 2008 - 01:48 PM.

[Cookies220]

So how does all that install and download lark help people like me, that don't yet have a wireless or internet connection anywhere near where the PS3 would live?

So your PS3 is not connected to the internet EVER? You will probably have software updates needed for the PS3 straight away. My last one was only a couple of days ago.

[timmyp]

Comparing anything currently available on a console to the hardcore PC simulations (be it LFS, GPL, GTR2, etc.) is pretty pointless. It both amuses and winds me up that the GT series of games claim to be simulations - it's about equivalent to a butcher's shop offering brain surgery.

Not that you can really blame them - games don't sell if they're too hard. Driving a high-performance car on the very limits of grip isn't something that you can pick up in 5 laps - even if you're already an extremely proficient and experienced driver, merely adapting to the nuances of a new car takes many hours of track time, before you even start to make adjustments to make it drive how you want it. A console game that came even minutely close to this level of detail would be a commercial disaster. If you count up every single sale of LFS, GPL, GTR2, rFactor, and so on, it would probably still not equal the equivalent of a single month of sales of an arcade game like GT4, Forza, etc.

From first impressions of GT5p, it seems to be every bit as tough as GTR2 when set on the professional mode. The Nissan GT-R is really tricky, touch the brakes mid corner and you're off, brake with 1 wheel on the grass and you're round like Raikonnen in oz etc. etc. Very impressed with the '1 make races' so far, where everybody's in the same car.

Only complaint is that in the multi-manufacturer races, the computer controlled japanese cars seem to be very biased compared to everyone else... Computer controlled GT-R's beating computer controlled F430 by 15 seconds and out-draggin them on the straights? I think maybe a touch of Japanese patriotism may have overcome some of the programmers!

[speedyK]

From first impressions of GT5p, it seems to be every bit as tough as GTR2 when set on the professional mode. The Nissan GT-R is really tricky, touch the brakes mid corner and you're off, brake with 1 wheel on the grass and you're round like Raikonnen in oz etc. etc.

After the inevitable initial off the track backwards momemts, I've actually got the hang of the GT-R in full sim mode with all aids off. But the Ford GT and F430 are really tricky in comparison!

[Ash]

So how does all that install and download lark help people like me, that don't yet have a wireless or internet connection anywhere near where the PS3 would live?

So your PS3 is not connected to the internet EVER? You will probably have software updates needed for the PS3 straight away. My last one was only a couple of days ago.

I haven't got my PS3 yet, I'm awaiting the money to clear from a Paypal refund. I should get one by the weekend. Until I get a wireless router set up, can I just take the console up stairs and plug into the modem box and use the computer monitor?

I've been watching the video's that have been added to youtube lately for GT5 and it really does look the DB's!!