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Stage 4 Vxt W/engine Internals At Tms


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#1 snoopstah

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 09:36 PM

As many of you know, I recently p urchased MikeF's old VXT, a car with numerous modifications, almost all of which have been done by Thorney Motorsport. Mike made it clear that it had the 'old' stage 4 setup, and would likely benefit from the revised Thorney Motorsport stage 4 setup, which involved VXR Astra injectors, the relocation of the air intake temperature sensor to be after the chargecooler, and a revised map.

As such, one of the first things I did following the purchase of the car was to book it into Thorney Motorsport for this work to be done, not only for the additional power, but because the car was very unpleasant to drive, with numerous flatspots around the rev range, huge amounts of lag, and what appeared to be fuelling that couldn't decide whether it wanted to be rich or lean.

As a first-time visitor to Thorney Motorsport, I thought a review wouldn't be out of order -- as we all know, Thorney Motorsport has had some less than satisfied customers on this forum, which I must admit had me a little concerned as someone who hasn't used them before.

Milton Keynes is about 100 miles away from me, which meant that I'd be waiting for the car whilst the work was done. In an effort to get my car in first, I asked at booking when they opened, which was 8:30. Unfortunately it appears that other people have realised that there are people there a little earlier, as despite arriving at bang on 8:30 there were already a large number of cars there. Sadly it appears that they don't have a prioritisation system in place, which meant that although I was the only person waiting, the car didn't get looked at until after 12pm.

Having said that, the waiting room is a lot better than that at most garages, with free internet access, free hot drinks, and a TV available, as well as a large viewing area into the main workshop. There were three other VXs there at the time, a Moonland turbo which appeared to be having a service, a yellow turbo which was having CF seats fitted, and a silver NA which wasn't being worked on but looked like a longer-term project (no gearbox from what I could see).

The first thing they did was take my car for a short test drive, and upon returning confirmed my view that the engine currently had flatspots at various points. They then took the car into the garage to begin work on it - applying the new map, changing the injectors, and moving the air intake temperature sensor to just before the throttle body.

At around 4.30pm the work was completed and they took it out for another drive before handing me the keys and inviting me to try it out. First impressions were that it was a lot smoother at full throttle, although on the short drive I couldn't really gather too much about it - it was certainly much improved however. Upon returning I asked them if they would put it on the rolling road, which they did. The end results are, however, a little disappointing, with it producing 272bhp and, more importantly, 265lb/ft of torque. This is quite a bit less than a 'normal' stage 4 car (without the engine internals that mine has) usually produces. Their explanation was that the turbo may be on the way out (which seems unlikely to me as it's an Astra VXR turbo with a maximum of 8,500 miles on it, but not impossible I guess).

However, the shape of the graphs is quite pleasing, with a very smooth power curve and a very flat torque curve, so despite the rather low figures it was promising to drive quite nicely.

At the fly:
Posted Image

At the wheels:
Posted Image

Unfortunately, the biggest surprise was still to come - the bill. Having had a chat with John before buying Mike's car, he'd advised me that the temperature sensor and injectors needed doing, as well as the new map (which was free), and had informally mentioned a price to me of 'a couple of hundred quid'. I had also contacted Courtenay to find out how much it would cost for them to do the work, and to do the injectors and move the temp sensor would have cost £345 (of course it would have also required their remap, which would have been an extra cost). To be presented with a bill of £664.35 therefore was somewhat of an unpleasant shock!

Admittedly part of that was my fault for asking for the rolling road run (I had assumed that it was a standard part of the remap, but obviously it is not - and had I known it cost £65 + VAT I would not have had it done). However, that still leaves a bill of over £580 - not far off double what Courtenay would charge, and a far cry from a couple of hundred quid.

The largest cost was, of course, the labour - apparently 4.5 hours of labour was done on the car, which seems very excessive for what are, to my admittedly limited understanding, two quite simple jobs. Given that the car went in after 12 and was out for the test drive at 4.30, and given that a few times when I looked out the window it was not being worked on (except possibly by the laptop uploading the remap) it does seem unlikely, although I don't know whether two people were working on it at various times. John explained that labour costs are dictated by the state of the vehicle, but I wasn't made aware of any other issues with it.

In conclusion, I am very happy with the improvement in drivability of the car, which has gone from being a complete nightmare on anything other than a straight bit of road to having power delivery that allows you to exploit the superb handling of the car. I still feel that the part-throttle power delivery can be a little hesitant and lumpy. In addition it doesn't honestly feel that fast to me, which I suspect is mostly due to the rather paltry torque figures.

Would I go back to Thorney Motorsport? Probably, but only for simple things like servicing. I understand that many VX owners are rather replete with cash, but unfortunately that's not me -- I've scrimped and saved to buy my car, and while I can afford to run and maintain it, I can't afford open-ended bills. It's a shame as I found their facilities excellent and their staff appeared knowlegeable, professional and happy in their work. My car is far better than it went in - in some ways the improvement is worth way more than £664.35, as I almost certainly would have sold the car if the power delivery couldn't be improved. But looking at what actually got done and what it cost me, the value for money simply isn't there.

Edited by snoopstah, 28 August 2008 - 09:37 PM.


#2 SteveA

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 09:43 PM

My CMS stage 2 has 264lbft torque so there is deffo something wrong. I know Mike and know he had thrown a LOT of money into this car. It seems to me that if a simple remap would sort it he deffo would have paid for it regardless of cost. Good look getting it sorted.

#3 snoopstah

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 10:08 PM

There may well be some underlying problem but to be honest the new map has made the car hugely better - it's literally a night and day difference. Mike's been planning to sell the car for some time (he advertised it first in Jan/Feb), so I can see why he wasn't eager to spend more money on it, even though the cost of the work done was obviously a drop in the ocean compared to what Mike spent on the car overall. To be honest, the power figures are disappointing but not something I'm overly concerned about - I bought the car mainly for the handling mods that had been done (adding brakes, Nitrons, LSD and wheels/tyres to a standard VXT of that age/mileage would have pushed the end cost up higher than Mike's car cost, so it was a no-brainer). It would be nice to get more out of it, and maybe in 6 months or so when the finances have recovered somewhat I'll investigate further, but for the moment it's sufficient. The problem was that the power delivery used to make the handling inaccesible (for a driver of my ability at least), and that's been rectified.

Edited by snoopstah, 28 August 2008 - 10:12 PM.


#4 SteveA

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 10:15 PM

Mike once told me that he had spent somewhere in the region of 40K (including the price of the car) on his VX, so an extra 1K would be nothing. I would follow VXR36's lead and take it to a few other tuners for their advice. P.S I have been out in that car and the handling is what made me buy my Sachs, R888's and full geo/cornerweight. Its a good buy at 18K thumbsup

#5 cheeky_chops

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 10:44 PM

Injectors are £120 tops (£76 online) = £460 for 4+1/2 hours of nothingness (ok 45 mins to fit injectors)!!!!? thumbsdown i paid CMS for injectors, new actuator, setup on RR = £360 I thought you had the super duper manifold and turbo not astra vxr??

#6 Thorney

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 07:04 AM

We have had a dialogue off site so I'm a little surprised to see it up here in such negative terms but thats life I guess. Firstly as I explained on the phone I quoted a 'couple of hundred' which was for parts, you didn't ask me for a detailed quote as to be frank we really didn't know what needed to be done. MikeF lived a long way from here and since we last saw the car he had done a whole load of other things to it (including electrical changes, new dash etc etc) and to be frank I had no idea what had changed since we saw it. Also, last time we saw it had melted a rocker gasket pooring oil everywhere, we fixed it with a new gasket and cleaned it up but again we'd not seen the car since that happened. As a result I instructed the techs to give the car a thorough going over which took a little time, this was mentioned to you when you came in as it was a highly modified car we wanted to check it out. I'm sorry if that wasn't explained for you. As regards the power, yes it did seem a little low and I was more than happy to engage in some more work on it but we simply didn't have the time as you wanted the car back. There could be a whole range of reasons why it is down on power and I'm happy to look into it but obviously I need to have the car here.

#7 johnyt

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 07:26 AM

My stage 4 is running at 290bhp and 333lb ft according to the dyno a year or so ago and it flies with no flat spots, bit laggy but i think that's to be expected with single turbo and relatively high boost. My car had its 4 yr service at TMS with a belt change all at quoted price and whenever i spend money on servicing i always have the discussion at the start about the cost and ask them to call me on my mobile if they find anything unexpected. Since being fleeced by an Alfa Romeo specialist I've even been known to ask for the old parts back that they've charged me to replace! Facilities at TMS were no match for the cinema, snow-dome, burger king and coffee shops all of which i visited after they gave me a lift in to town and picked me up again!

#8 Winstar

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 07:38 AM

I'm not going to coment on the costings of TMS However on the power results does your car have the lower compresion pistons as part of the internal mods? in which case this will be why your producing less power and torque with the boost available from the Astra VXR turbo. :rolleyes:

#9 framauro

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 07:51 AM

...so I'm a little surprised to see it up here in such negative terms...

I'd hardly consider snoops feedback to be negative. I'd say it's fairly balanced. He is much happier with the car now, so that's a big positive. thumbsup All he is saying is that he was led to believe a final cost of £200-300 (say 300-ish when you add on VAT) but it ended up being over £650. Twice what he expected. That's all he was saying.

He's not suggesting TMS is ripping off customers, just that costs are not always obvious.

#10 drpau

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 08:03 AM

...so I'm a little surprised to see it up here in such negative terms...

I'd hardly consider snoops feedback to be negative. I'd say it's fairly balanced. He is much happier with the car now, so that's a big positive. thumbsup All he is saying is that he was led to believe a final cost of £200-300 (say 300-ish when you add on VAT) but it ended up being over £650. Twice what he expected. That's all he was saying.

He's not suggesting TMS is ripping off customers, just that costs are not always obvious.


That was my interpretation of it too.
I did like this bit "end results are, however, a little disappointing, with it producing 272bhp " heh heh. Disappointing and 272 horsepower in the same sentence. I get what you are saying though Snoop.

#11 snoopstah

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 08:10 AM

We have had a dialogue off site so I'm a little surprised to see it up here in such negative terms but thats life I guess.

I thought I was pretty fair :(

I understand that I didn't ask you for a detailed quote, and as I said in my PM to you, at no point did I expect to walk up to reception, slap 10 £20 notes on the table, and walk out. Equally you do this every day, and I was surprised you gave me a informal price so far off the actual one. Given that I'd also had a proper quote of £345 from another reputable tuner I thought your price wouldn't be hugely far out - surely you can understand my surprise?

As regards the power, yes it did seem a little low and I was more than happy to engage in some more work on it but we simply didn't have the time as you wanted the car back. There could be a whole range of reasons why it is down on power and I'm happy to look into it but obviously I need to have the car here.

I realise that - as I said, it's a shame as I was expecting more, but outright power wasn't my primary motivator behind buying Mike's car. The shape of the graphs is excellent - I wasn't expecting to have anywhere near such a flat torque curve on a turbocharged car.

Edited by snoopstah, 29 August 2008 - 08:17 AM.


#12 Pidgeon

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 08:25 AM

Buying that car on a budget is a brave thing to do. I didn't follow all of Mike's threads, but he did a lot of unique work to that car, work that is unlikely to translate immediatley into reliable power. I was interested in the Sapphire car with the LEH and 6 speed, but following the time money and effort the new owner has had to invest has been educational. I expect you will be in the same position to extract the potential for that car.

#13 snoopstah

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 08:38 AM

Buying that car on a budget is a brave thing to do. I didn't follow all of Mike's threads, but he did a lot of unique work to that car, work that is unlikely to translate immediatley into reliable power. I was interested in the Sapphire car with the LEH and 6 speed, but following the time money and effort the new owner has had to invest has been educational. I expect you will be in the same position to extract the potential for that car.

It was a tough decision, and only time will tell if it was the right one!

The original plan for Mike's car was to fit the roller-bearing turbo, at which point it should put out around 360bhp - that's why it had all the internal engine work done. That's not something I plan on doing - while it would be great on track, I think it would ruin the usability on the road, and it's not just a trackday toy for me.

On the other hand, the uprated internals should (as I understand it) make the engine somewhat bulletproof with the amount of power I'm ever going to put through it (be it 272bhp or 300bhp). The turbo may not last forever, but they are cheap units to replace.

As said, that may not turn out to be the case, but that was certainly the hope! Yes, I won't be extracting the potential of the car's engine or doing what Mike had planned to do with it, but for my level of driver talent there comes a point where giving a car more power isn't going to make me be able to drive it any quicker.

#14 ianrm

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 08:38 AM

I apologise for the delay in starting work on your car but sometimes customers arrive earlier than expected. So rather than have Technicians standing around we start jobs straight away as sometimes we have customers that do not show up, are late due to traffic etc. Unfortunately some jobs take longer than expected and overrun timings in our diary. Other customers that day had been dropped off in town for the day or at the Train station. I am not making excuses but just wanted to point out some of the reasons for delays. Ideally in a perfect world everything would run like clockwork but that doesn't always happen.

#15 snoopstah

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 08:42 AM

I apologise for the delay in starting work on your car but sometimes customers arrive earlier than expected. So rather than have Technicians standing around we start jobs straight away as sometimes we have customers that do not show up, are late due to traffic etc.

Unfortunately some jobs take longer than expected and overrun timings in our diary.
Other customers that day had been dropped off in town for the day or at the Train station. I am not making excuses but just wanted to point out some of the reasons for delays. Ideally in a perfect world everything would run like clockwork but that doesn't always happen.

Hi Ian,

That's OK - I had booked the entire day off, so it wasn't a problem, and it was explained to me when I arrived that I would be in for a long wait. I had intended to be the first car there, but it turned out other people had that idea too!

My intention was more to warn others who may plan on waiting that arriving as early as possible is a good idea!

#16 denno

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 09:29 AM

Dont think you have been harsh with your review,just open and honest with some positives and some negatives.You havent slated thorney or anything like that so dont think there is really anything for them to to defend.

#17 RobNA

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 10:02 AM

Dont think you have been harsh with your review,just open and honest with some positives and some negatives.You havent slated thorney or anything like that so dont think there is really anything for them to to defend.


Absolutely! I think you have been far more diplomatic than I would have been.

John, could you answer a couple of questions I have in my head.

Can you explain why the power is so far down from what was expected? (or even state what power you would expect a car with the mods that Snoops car has to achieve)

For future customers to consider, what are the expected times to fit the injectors? and how long should it take you to rectify the mistake with locating the temp sensor?

And one final question, is the rolling road session not a standard thing to do once you have remapped a car?

Thanks very much

Rob

#18 vxr36

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 12:24 PM

I too thought your comments were fair but TMS have a reputation for responding in that way to honest and frank comments. The curve is a nice shape but the numbers are poor. However, I'm surprised you took it back there when they did all the mods in the first place in order to get it into the condition that you bought it in, which sounds exaclty how mine was when I decided to pull the plug after months of going nowhere. At least they've managed to improve the drivability for you somewhat. Good luck with your resolution. John, you should have considered yourself lucky to get a second chance on this car to make things good but you blew it. But that's life I guess!

#19 siztenboots

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 12:41 PM

Was it the magic tuning elves day off ? chinky chinky :groupjump:

#20 snoopstah

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:24 PM

The curve is a nice shape but the numbers are poor. However, I'm surprised you took it back there when they did all the mods in the first place in order to get it into the condition that you bought it in, which sounds exaclty how mine was when I decided to pull the plug after months of going nowhere. At least they've managed to improve the drivability for you somewhat.

My view was that, regardless of whether it ends up having a TMS map or a CMS map on it, the injectors and the moving of the temp sensor was something that would need doing regardless, so I may as well try TMS and let them also put their newest map on it. That logic was somewhat based on it costing roughly the same for TMS to move the temp sensor and fit the injectors as CMS would have charged, though!




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