357 replies to this topic

[speedyK]

Felix Wyder from Delta-motor told me that now they have further incresead the torque down low, and the car is even faster!

Great!

Have you seen an up-to-date power chart?

I'm still waiting for one.

PS Thanks for the ski-ing invite – had to attend daughter's concert...

[Ricky2772]

just spoke with mantaparts (ohio, USA), specialized on GM engines.

http://www.mantapart.com/

explained my situation, and they said they deal with this kind of charger/turbo mods all the time, so can handle any piston/conrods request....
I briefly explained'em them the Delta-motor kit, and that I will need a lower compression rate.... no prob they said, just send us a stock piston and a conrod, and they will make a forged set (pistons+conrods) with the required compression rate for about 1000 usd.
I can also choose to increase the bore, but I guess its better not to....
helluva cheaper than in italy, where spec-made pistons go for 700/1000 euros, and conrods 1200......if carrillo's are asked, its 380 euros EACH....

they claim making conrods using the same Carrillo specs and bolts, so they should be by far exceeding a lightweight speedy's requirements....
also they can (and actually endorse it) have the lubricating hole drilled in the conrods as well, just send a pic on how big you need it....

..at this point, it could become MUCH cheaper to skip the kompressor kit and "only" go for forged pistons, conrods and cams, (like the majority of friends and tuners suggest me... ) along with a brand new, fully-programmable EFI module..... I guess 180-190 hp are quite accessible....

decisions, decisions....

[speedyK]

But what comeback will you have to a firm in USA if it all goes "BANG!"?

Wouldn't want to have to try to prove that they had supplied someting defective...

Edit to say sSaw this on the Mantapart site:

"OP 1571E ECOTEC 2.2 TC Billet Competition Connecting Rods: This set of 4 high quality steel billet rods are precision CNC-machined for ultimate strength and lightness, with maximum reliability in high HP and RPM applications. Complete with high tensile strength ARP rod bolts and high quality wrist pin bushings, these are vital to any high HP ECOTEC- the factory powdered metal rods cannot sustain high HP reliability for long! Come complete with the best Clevite 77 rod bearings too- specify your crank size."

particularly this bit is interesting:
the factory powdered metal rods cannot sustain high HP reliability for long!

if lubricating holes as D–M do, wonder just how well they do hold up – can't imagine Herr W. wanting to take any risks...

Edited by speedyK, 01 December 2003 - 11:26 PM.

[Ricky2772]

particularly this bit is interesting:
the factory powdered metal rods cannot sustain high HP reliability for long!

if lubricating holes as D–M do, wonder just how well they do hold up – can't imagine Herr W. wanting to take any risks...

....that part made me raise BIG eyebrows....
...and I think mr. felix only "safely"ASSUMED that stock, holed-out conrods will sustain the extra power...2.2 ecotec is a brand new engine for his experience as well, and he surely did not have plenty cars to test in long, exhaustive track-days.... actually at my precise inquiry "which track did you hit for testing" he never told me, remained vague and talked about "fast roads" (german autobahn?)

I guess I will have to further investigate the issue.....

my math says: 1600 usd (1350euros) give me pistons, conrods and cams, an extra 700 will make a new ecu....porting the head will be 500.. labor around 1000......total 3600 euros...for an estimated, minimum 190hp N/A (+added efficiency) horsepower
....., against 6500 euros (7000 with pistons) for 200-ish, charged, +20kg horses.....

about buying overseas you're right, it's kinda a chance, relying on their proven reputation and expertise I'd guess....
even at delta, if the engine goes bang, you won't get any reimbursement, unless some part included in the charger-kit brakes!

[ddpunter]

an extra 700 will make a new ecu

what ecu will you use?
and if you are doing the engine work yourself can you post a 'how to'
good luck mate
d

[Ricky2772]

and if you are doing the engine work yourself can you post a 'how to'

...that's only a dream I' afraid.....
correct torquing of each bolt is paramount when touching heads and blocks....

if only pistons are replaced, I might get away with it, otoh rods require to take the whole engine apart with crankshaft and all, way too messy for my skills....

ECU would be a standard EFI, the one used on any avg. race car, fully programmable in any parameter....

[cheeky_chops]

There FAQ mentions the Sunfire series - quick search and found this 2.2 ecotec sunfire - 1000bhp http://www.ultimatec...car.mv&num=1666

They talk about "big HP" in a different sense to us

Ricky - you know you want too....

[clipping_point]

In case yu'all have missed this. The ultimate Ecotec tuning guide:

http://www.saunalaht...uor/ecotec.html

ENJOY!

[Ricky2772]

"GM Racing dyno tests confirm an otherwise bone-stock Ecotec is capable of a reliable 350 hp with forged rods and pistons (and a bunch of nitrous or boost). " all I needed to know.....good enough for me!! "However, as the Ecotec pushed through 283 hp at 4400 rpm, all four connecting rods simultaneously failed catastrophically and smashed through the side of the block." well, 283hp if far down the road in my tuning horizons, so even on stock rods it should be fine.....wtf!!! ...anyway, seems pretty clear now that the "weak" point are rods.... so, employing forged rods, no more need for piston ceiling lubrication by the drilled hole , I guess!! "The crank support structure of the Ecotec is unbelievbly strong," says Bothwell. "We detected no core shifting under the exterme conditions." The engine-fuel combination turned out to be extremely knock-resistant. The Ecotec combustion chamber is efficient, with excellent tumble and high flame speed, and the engine was able to run 10:1 compression knock at boost pressures as high as 36 psi " 10:1 at 36 psi!! so we can safely assume that the 8,75:1 at 0,7 psi from Delta is quite.....erm....safe. question: what would happen leaving the standard compression ratio 10:1 along with the charger kit and forged pistons ? 240 hp?

Edited by Ricky2772, 02 December 2003 - 10:38 AM.

[speedyK]

what would happen leaving the standard compression ratio 10:1 along with the charger kit and forged pistons ?
240 hp? 

STOP IT!

You're making me drool.

Edit to say

Why not ask FW at D-M? Maybe they will agree to fit the american kit instead of their modded rods.

Edited by speedyK, 02 December 2003 - 12:07 PM.

[clipping_point]

so, employing forged rods, no more need for piston ceiling lubrication by the drilled hole , I guess!!

Yeah, I don't know however they (Delta) got that idea?

[Ricky2772]

from what we found above, we now know that keeping 10:1 ratio with forged components is perfectly safe.....eventually the charger can be set to a lower boost to start with... a re-map/smaller pulley can be added at any time.... gotta ask FW...

[Ricky2772]

Why not ask FW at D-M? Maybe they will agree to fit the american kit instead of their modded rods.

FW already told me its a better solution no doubt!
(he discarded it cost-wise I'm sure)
but with such a good dollar/euro exchange rate, a set of pistons+rods at 1000 usd is a crime not to get.....
will write FW about retaining the 10:1 ratio with forged stuff...IMO mantaining the same ratio is a very important factor , since the car can be run before the charger AND in case the charger has to come off for whatever reason.... plus I could dyno it and evaluate any difference.....

[Ricky2772]

this is what I wrote mr. Felix:

>Dear Ricky
>For the compressor kit, the ratio is 8,75:1.
>If you can go to this ratio by using other pistons, this is
>better/easier then using thicker gaskets.

Felix, on the forum we have been discussing a lot about the all the options....
according to GM motorsport, the engine is perfectly safe to run at 10:1 ratio with turbo up to 2psi (!!) and 350hp......(!!!!) IF forged rods and pistons are used.
stock rods will break at 283hp with nitrous.... :-O...quite a STRONG ENGINE!!!!!
you can read it here:

http://www.saunalaht...uor/ecotec.html

now, the american firm Mantasport can make a set of super-strong forged pistons AND rods for about 1000 usd. (they used them a lot on turbo-charged 2.2 ecotec's and are good for in excess of 500 hp with reinforced crankshaft)

we want to be able to run these parts on the stock engine, (in case the charger has to be removed in the future for whatever reson, be it sale, MOT inspection....) and when we install your charger-kit, we can set a REDUCED boost initially, maybe 0,5, to compensate for the 10:1 ratio.
I also run cooler iridium plugs.
let me know, we are waiting for your opinion!

[cheeky_chops]

Have you seen this http://www.rsmracing.com/ecotec.htm - a 60hp supercharger for $4700??

Also, would the enlarged 62mm throttle body and air intake system fit too given that the VX is fly-by-wire?? $430 for 16 hp

Edited by cheeky_chops, 02 December 2003 - 01:01 PM.

[Ricky2772]

nice, but can it be EASILY adapted to the mid-engined speedy? I see pulleys connected to the intake camshaft, by the air-filter side.... do we have room for that?!? this is truly a case that if something does not fit, you are screwed big time....try to ship back 4700$ worth of stuff... TB....sounds phony to me, it needs more fuel along, otherwise it only decreases the fuel mix ratio AND intake air speed.....

[BogBrush]

Do you reckon this will fit in our engine bays?

[Ricky2772]

thet's mr. FW answer: Dear Riccardo The setting of the ECU was done with 8,75:1 and we run already 0,5bar about. Dont forget, we have a mechanic compressor which Brings us pressure from low end speed. The kit's are ready from 17.12.03. so, 8,75 I'll go... only have to decide where and how to do the installation....I want to be THERE watching, for me it's part of the fun !!! I asked how complicated the job is...if some specific grinding/modding the intake manifold is required....

[clipping_point]

Are there not any pistons with reduced compression available instead of making new con rods? SAAB Aero for instance? Shorter con rod may affect the cylinder wear and friction I suppose

[Ricky2772]

nono, my plan is to make de-compressed forged pistons (lower floor) and stronger, lighter rods, but that remain the same dimensions-wise. I'd rather make forged rods than drill the dubious hole in the stock rods, that appear to be already the "weak" component on a charged engine.... edited to say I dunno how saab aero could fit, in Italy we only have a 2.3 turbo aero, that most likely have different bore and stroke...do you have a saab 2.2 turbo on swedish market?

Edited by Ricky2772, 03 December 2003 - 10:43 AM.